Posted by Juan on February 09, 1998 at 09:32:56:
Dear Jochen
Jochen Writes :
:"I didn't say anything like that in my posting.I have no interest in your ranting. I provided personal evidence for the genuineness of Timothy."
-----------------------------------------------------
Juan Writes :
You've provided personal evidence ?
" I know timothy and his testimony is authentic , I know the pastor that baptized him ,I know a guy that knows him from Egypt , I know this I know that " wow that's realy some substantial evidence , Jochen types on his screen that he knows this person and that person , presto ! " Evidence !" . Jochen and his quasi-Logic . You've provided no evidence whatsoever .
Ranting and secreting garbage is what you do on your " Answering Islam" page .
For example you have an article concerning Marriage : " Dont marry a Muslim!! " and the theme of this "rant polemic" is that Muslims are "bad bad" with their wives .
This article criticizes Islam for instructing wives to ingadge in domestic affairs , stay at home , rearing the children etc .
well Jochen Titus 2:4-5 instructs CHRISTIAN Women to :
" That they (older women) may teach the young women to be sober, to love their husbands ,to love their children, to be discreet,chaste,KEEPERS AT HOME,GOOD AND OBEDIENT TO THEIR OWN
HUSBANDS,that the word of God be not blasphemed"
"KEEPERS AT HOME " and there are other biblical verses regarding women that use the same Greek word "OIKOUROS"(Lexical # 3626) which denotes "Looking after Domestic affairs " .
So what is your problem Jochen ? You have a link to a Muslim site that persents evidence from Quran and Suna that Muslim women should be "OIKOUROS" "Look after domestic affairs / Keepers at home " .... yes Jochen ? so ? " Islam bad bad ,evil"... please .
Christian Women are also instructed to stay at home with their children , ingadged in domestic work in humble Obedience to their Husbands why dont you mention that in your article on "Marrying a Muslim " ?.
What is extraordinary and seen as unique piety and dedication in Christianity concerning the behaviour of women adherents is common place in Islam . Why is that ? "The Salt and Light of the Earth " seems to have jumped the fence into the Islamic camp .
This article also mentions beatings and molestations giving the ignorant reader the impression all Muslims are Violent Wife Beaters who like to fundle little girls " Beware !! dont marry a Muslim Middle Eastern Male !!"
yet in this angelic "Judeo-Christian" society we have more wife beatings , rapes , child molestations, alcoholics,drug users , Prostitutes and Convicts than almost all the middle eastern countries combined .
These Satanic "Mullah's" in Iran ( bad bad Iran) know once the stench of Christiandom has spread through out their culture it will ravage and devastate the moral fabric of their society . Everything which is imoral and dishonorable will eventualy be in "your face" and rampant.
Islam provides a structure , spiritual and societal which is non-existant in Christianity .
Jochen writes :
:" After you have suffered for a year, being tortured for the
: sake of your testimony for Christ, I might pay attention to your opinion again. But fact is that this other friend has lived with Timothy for years and you have not even met him. "
---------------------------------------------------
Juan Writes :
(Im playing the violin ). That's a bunch of melodramatic Christian "Fundie" Bull sh-t made to demonize Islam and Muslims.
Christian "Triumphalism"(which is the world view Jochen and most fundamentalist have ) wage a Theological , cultural war , a Crusade of concepts and world views ( Christian) vs (Islam ).
they say : We will flood them with Missionaries ( and they must accept it damn it !!) and we will attack / disvalidate / stress their beliefs .
Many Muslims in the third world see Christianity as :
" Christianity = Colonialism/Colonist = Western Idiology = moral degeneration of society " and to some extent they are right .
Jochen Writes :
: If you know maybe some kind of soft Sufi Islam in the West, then I believe you : have a very different image about Islam, but there is also different Islam out there. Are the reports about Iran (ISLAMIC Republic, ruled by the Mullahs)
or the Taliban in Afghanistan all lies?
----------------------------------------------
Juan Writes :
Please be more specific . What "reports" and what's the source of these "reports"? Hal Lindsay " Inteligence Report " On TBN ? 700 Club ? VOM ( robert wurmbrandt) ? Benny Hinn ? Timothy ?
Jochen writes :
"You might say that doesn't represent the Islam as you know it", and that is probably exactly the issue,but will you go so far as to say that doesn't exist? "
-------------------------------------------------------
Juan Writes :
I may say that doesnt represent the Islam "as I know it" ? what doesn't exist ? be more specific .
I know the Islam as expressed in the Quran and the personal example of Muslims from all over the world that I personaly experienced this Ramadan as a Christian (Nazarah as they called me) among them . They treated me like a Brother and not once did they stress or attempt to disvalidate my faith.They are Salafi not "soft Sufi" .
If I was a Muslim among Christians I would have been sermonized , patronized , sent to hell , given "Robert Morey " and "Gilchrist" books on "Allah the Moon God" , I would've been unable to sit among Christians in peace and understanding , in Mutual respect without first "Accepting Jesus !!" we are going to drill you until you do and if you dont we will make you feel bad bad ".
That didn't happened to me when I was among Muslims yet the sincerety and serenity of their inner life was felt in a very real and powerful way .
Islam is one and there may be mutations ( as they're Christian Mutations) , but Islam is one and its the Islam which Polemicist like yourself attack with misinformation and slander .
Jochen Writes :
"And will you go so far as to say that these people do not believe this is authentic Islam? And when somebody from such a background comes to faith in Christ, then he is not justified to say that this is the Islam that he has experienced?"
-----------------------------------------------
Juan Writes :
No , he isn't Justified in misrepresenting Islamic teachings ,he isn't justified in smearing,demonizing ,bashing Islam due to some personal rancour or due to "Christian Triumphalism" and
Ignorance .
Jochen Writes :
" Was it not real because you have not seen it?"
-------------------------------------------
Juan Writes :
What I have seen is Christians bending backwards , stretching the truth,exagerating ,attacking all other beliefs and adherents to other religions which dont agree with their simpleton world/spiritual view and perspective.
Jochen writes :
" Timothy was in the Islamic brotherhood and what he writes is true. Maybe you only have a very narrow information of what Islam is (and as it presents itself in the west), but your lack of knowledge does not imply that Timothy is ignorant
: or a liar."
----------------------------------------------------
Juan Writes :
semantics : " Jochen believes that what Timothy wrote is true" yes we know Jochen thanks for telling us that for the 122nd time .
"Jochen argues Juan has a "very narrow information" of Islam because his position doesn't agree with his Christian fundamentalist "very robert mickey mouse muray , joseph smith view " of what Islam is .
Jochen Writes :
" Frankly, I find it distasteful how you attack your brother and when informed of your mistake you attack me as well. A true Christian would listen to correction."
-------------------------------------------
Juan writes :
Frankly I could care less how you see things . No mistake has been commited on my part . The mistake is yours for ingading in this Christian Fundimentalist Crusade against Islam and Muslims .
I agree a true Christian listens to correction ... are you listening ?
Jochen Writes :
" Stop your general accusations. How much have you read of my articles? My web site is Answering Islamand I ask you to point out any errors on that page that you find and I will correct them. Be specific and forget your haughty accusations."
-------------------------------------------------
Juan writes :
Haughty , pomp and arrogant are many of the articles on your web-site .
Christianity is nice and clean , Islam "bad bad , evil " . cheap polemics .
Jochen writes :
:"Where did I say that? I never did. I didn't say all Muslims in Egypt are: trying to kill Christians. You are building up silly straw men."
--------------------------------------------------
Juan writes :
The material you publish is filled with innuendos and implications that yes indeed all Muslims are violent , Islam is "bad bad" and poor little inocent Christians are being hunted down in masse by angry Muslim Mobs . "bad bad Islam" .
No actualy im burning down the straw men people like yourself and timothy build .
Jochen writes :
:" Christians are oppressed on the official political level, and they are attacked by Muslim extremists. Those are a minority in Egypt, but the issue is that the government gives them free hand basically. They do act where they attack the state, but they don't defend the Christians who are citizens just as the Muslims. "
---------------------------------------------------------
Juan writes :
Christians are oppressed on the official political level ? How ?
Is that Islam ?
in Indonesia Christians hold very important positions in Government , including the Military and there are over 20 thousand Christian missionaries . "Islam bad bad" .
you use the label " Muslim extremist" for Murderers and terrorist ? Oh ok , Tim Mcveigh is a "Christian Extremist" and those Militia members arrested a few months ago for conspiring to blow up the FBI Fingure ID Lab and Library center in Virginia are "Christian Extremist " because one of them co-pastored a small church .
Jim Jones made 800 people drink poisen coolaid, his group had a Bible based theology ( as twisted as it was) and he preached about Jesus he is now a "Christian extremist".
( Imagine if Jim Jone's Cult was Quranic Based . Christian fundamentalist would go ape " JIM JONES THE MUSLIM EXTREMIST! ISLAM BAD BAD !! )
"Christian" Serbian's built concentration camps where they raped Muslim women and massacred thousands of Muslims . They also are responsible according to amnesty international for the "worse war crimes commited sense World War 2" (New York Times dec 3rd 1995 article "Bosnian Exodus ") . these serbs who massacred 8000 unarmed Muslims while they migrated to a UN safe zone are... yes you guessed it " Christian Extremist!! " .... please I can go on and on with this polemical homilitic garbage of how bad bad the other side is and how good , nice and clean my group is .
This is the message Jochen and Timothy are Propagating .
Jochen Writes :
" I didn't only read it, I edited his testimony for the web. He sent me the text and I made it an HTML document. I know him well. I know the authenticity and I make sure all the testimonies on my site are authentic."
-----------------------------------------------
Juan writes :
Many of these testimonies misrepresent Islam . But you dont care , aslong as Islam looks "bad bad" " evil " , hey anyways how can anyone prove these testimonies are fabrications or exagerations , all you have to say is "Sorry but I am unable to give you information because some crazy ( Muslim extremist) may kill my family " or a simple " hey look you dont know if this is a fabrication , prove its not true "
Jochen writes :
: I have rejected some that I was not sure of. And I will ditch any testimony that turns out to be fake. I will not withdraw them because Muslims don't like them. If I would do that, none would remain. I expect to be hated for this site just as these brothers and sisters are inundated with Muslim hate mail. But Jesus never promised us anything else.
---------------------------------------------
Juan writes :
( Im playing the violin ) " Hate Mail from bad bad Muslims "
Jochen writes :
": Matthew 5:
: 11 "Blessed are you when people insult you, persecute you
: and falsely say all kinds of evil against you because of me. 12 Rejoice and be glad, because great is your reward in heaven, for in the same way they persecuted the prophets who were before you."
---------------------------------------------------
Juan writes :
The Prophets were spreading Mitzvot and belief in Hashem Adonai not your lawless Christiandom . They were persecuted and hated , but not for spreading misinformation and lies .
(Jochen 5:11-12)
" blessed are those who disvalidate , tear down and disrespect the faith of everyone that doesnt agree with theirs for when people defend them selves and hate you for your childish dogmatic obnoxious behaviour hold your head high knowing your doing what God wants you to do "
( 1st Peter 3:15)
".....be ready always to give an answer to every man that ASKETH YOU a reason for the hope that is in you by maligning and debasing the other person's religion "
Jochen writes :
: Easy. Just go to North Carolina. I am sure he is more than willing to meet with you and answer all questions you might have (other than the exact location of his home village which might endanger his family)
-------------------------------------------------
Juan writes :
Yes of course , I understand , he was in the "Muslim Brotherhood" and the "Muslim extremist " are going to kill his Muslim family , right . They dont know where his family lives .
His home village is hidden somewhere in a mountain , and when he was in the "Muslim Brotherhood" no one knew where he was from or about his family . I understand .
Jochen writes :
: Next time you come to NC, just send him a message.
: And until then, stop slandering a brother.
----------------------------------------------------
"Next Time " I go to NC? that's interesting .
The only ones slandering and spreading misinformation are Jochen and Timothy .
That article on " DONT MARRY MUSLIM MIDDLE EASTERN MALES !!" Is one of those slanders " THEY MAKE THEIR WIVES STAY AT HOME !! AAAAAAHHH!! Excuse me Mr Katz (coughing) the Bible also instructs women to stay home with the children .
why are you using that as a polemical weapon / AXE against Islam ? ( Jochen quasi-Logic of course ) .
Juan Bilbao