Re: Unity against Against Satan (i.e. Materialism)

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Subject  : Re: Re: Unity against Against Satan (i.e. Materialism)

Comments:
:  the Qur'an has been unchanged for over 1,400 years.

: Really? How do you know? Do you have the first copy?

: : The Qur'an does not contradict the central message of the Old Testament which is that there is One Creator without partners.

: Please define partners, I'm not exactly sure what you mean.

: : The Jewish scribes (why you ask) due to vanity, changed the name Ishmael into Isaac.  This does not change the message of a Supreme without partners.

: Proove it. Where can you show me an authentic text which backs up your claim?

: : The Qur'an does not contradict the OT, it only removes the tampering:

: i.e. The Qur'an has a different message to the Old Testament and so you brush any discrepancies under the carpet by saying that the Old Testament has been tampered with, without any proof of what has been tampered with, by whom or with any explanation as to why. As for you reference to vanity and the Jewish scribes, I don't think you could say that the differences in the story of Jonah have anything to do with vanity.

: : The same goes for the Gospel, the notion that Jesus is God had crept into the Gospel and that God is three, these notions as noted above, divide humanity, the Qur'an removes these false notions, therefore as history shows, uniting humanity, yestaurday is gone brother Jonathan, you can not change it, therefore learn from it.

: The notion that Jesus is God has not "crept into the Gospel" it is at its very root. If you say that Jesus is not God, then you say that the gospels are not just corrupt, but that they are a fabrication from begining to end.

: You seem to suggest that anything which divides humanity is wrong, i.e. if someone disagrees with something, then whatever they disagree with must be wrong. The prophecies concerning the conquering of Israel by the Babylonians caused division amongst the Jews of the day. Does that mean that the prophecies were wrong? Just because some people reject the truth does not make the truth a lie.

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: : "He sends down water from the cloud, then watercourses flow (with water) according to their measure, and the torrent bears along the swelling foam, and from what they melt in the fire for the sake of making ornaments or apparatus arises a scum like it; thus does Allah compare truth and falsehood; then as for the scum, it passes away as a worthless thing; and as for that which profits the people, it tarries in the earth; thus does Allah set forth parables." Qur'an 13:17 

: : {I thought you said that you thought John was a corrupted text.}
: : {I thought you said that Paul was a false teacher.}

: : Those that preach that God was a man and Those that preach against works are false teachers according to the Old Testament.

: God became as man and dwelt amongst us to redeem us of our sin, a concept which you cannot get a grip of because you ultimately believe that you can earn God's favour. As for preaching against works, I don't see where you get the idea that the NT does not advocate works. What the Scriptures tell us is that we cannot be saved by our works.

: Is man utterly sinful? Is man capable of obedience given that his very nature is fallen and has an inbuilt desire to move away from and rebel against God. Only God is good, how can you or I hope to earn our salvation through good works. <i>For all have sinned and fall short of the Glory of God</I> and <i>The wages of sin is death, but the <b>gift of God</b> is eternal life <b>in Christ Jesus our Lord</b>.</I>

: The Bible teaches us that we cannot save ourselves, we need a saviour. The Law makes us aware of our sin, and teaches us right from wrong, but knowledge does not equal power. The knowledge that something is wrong does not give me the power to stop doing that which is wrong. No, we need a saviour to save us from ourselves and the consequences of our inability to obey God.

: The Bible teaches that works on their own is not sufficient to gain our salvation. Could you ever be good enough to meet God's standard on your own, through your own efforts? The Bible says however that <i>Faith without works is dead</i>. Yes, that's right, without doing what God commands of us now that we are saved, we show by our inactivity or apathy that our faith, and hence our salvation are a figment of our own vain imaginations. There is nothing sadder that a person who thinks that they are right with God, and deceive no-one but themselves, because by their lives, they betray the state of their hearts.

: : Those that preach Unity are not false teachers, you are right brother Jonathan, that does sound inconsistant.

: No, those that shout "Peace, peace" when there is no peace are false witnesses.

: : Although am I inconsistant or is their message once again inconsistant?

: No, you are right the first time, it is you who is inconsistant, but one day you might see the truth.

: : "Nay, We hurl the Truth against falsehood, and it knocks out its brain, and behold, falsehood doth perish! Ah! woe be to you for the (false) things ye ascribe (to Us)." Qur'an 21:18

: I could say something to this, but I will refrain! :-)

: : Is Unity so bad to you brother Jonathan that even as I quote it from the Bible, from your favorite twosome (John and Paul), even they preach it and you reject it because you would rather hold on the false anti-unity, anti-Old Testament message that God was a man and we no longer follow works.

: Unity is great. I would love to say to you "Oh, brother Mohammed, although our scriptures contradict one another, and although there are gross differences between the message of the Qur'an and that of the Bible, and  although you have no proof that the Bible has been altered, but continue making wild accusations about the validity of the Word of God, for the sake of unity I will put all my misgivings aside, and brush over all these things so that we may unite over the one (or is it two) doctrines we agree on." But I'm afraid that my conscience does not permit me so to do. Yes, I am all for unity, but between you and I, there is precious little ground to unite over.

: : Historically and Morally in your heart, what is right?

: The Bible, because it is God's Word and it hold true. God's Word is unchanging, for by it everything was made and by it all things hold together. That Word is Jesus, the Only Son of the Father, full of Grace and <b>Truth</B>.

: : Your heart knows the answer, Unity is here, the Qur'an is here.

: Yes, my heart knows the answer. The world will only find true peace when it comes in Submission to the Prince of Peace.

: : "I in them and you in me. May they be brought to complete unity to let the world know that you sent me and have loved them even as you have loved me. John 17:23

: Now this is another verse which you have taken out of context (something at which you truly excel!). This is Jesus praying to the Father, asking that the Father would unite those who believe in Jesus through the word of the gospels. Now, you say that you believe in Jesus, and so I should therefore be at unity with you. However, Jesus prayed that I would have unity with those who believed in him through the word of the Aostles i.e. the Gospels. Now, you have said time and time again that you cannot accept (as yet) the fact that Jesus is proclaimed not just as prophet, but as prophet, priest and King inthe the Gospels, and yet more, that he is proclaimed as God's Anointed One, the very Son of God. I will not unite with anyone or anything which denies the deity of Christ, for to do so would be the worst form of blasphemy. For me to say that Jesus is not God is to deny everything that God has done in my life. I would be lying to myself, and would be untrue to the love which God has shown to me in sending his Son to die in my place.
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: : "Make every effort to keep the unity of the Spirit through the bond of peace. Ephesians 4:3

: Jesus is the Prince of Peace, if we cannot agree on who he is, then how can there be any form of unity?

: : "Also in Judah the hand of God was on the people to give them unity of mind to carry out what the king and his officials had ordered, following the word of the LORD. 2 Chronicles 30:12

: My king (Jesus) has ordered that I go into the world and make disciples, baptising them in the Name of the Father, and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, the Triune God. God is One, Amen, I can unite with you on that score. I do not believe in three gods, I believe in one God, Father, Son and Holy Spirit. Three in one.

: : "How good and pleasant it is when brothers live together in unity! Psalms 133:1

: Amen, I agree, but there are differences between who I say Jesus is and who you say he is, and until those are sorted out, we are not brothers.

: : "And over all these virtues put on love, which binds them all together in perfect unity. Colossians 3:14

: If I didn't love you, do you think I would waste my time writing to someone whose mind is already made up?

: : Inconclusion, not to change the subject, but is Paul and John historically inconsistant?

: No. Next question.

: : History shows that when Paul preached that Jesus died for sins and we no longer have to follow the Law, History shows that this divided Religion into Jews, Christians and Muslims, and yet at the same time, Paul preaches Unity?

: Codswallop. When Paul preached, the only division was between those who believed his message and those who did not, regardless of their former religion. The muslims didn't come on the scene for centuries. I think you need to read a decent history text book, Muhammed wasn't around for another several hundred years, and so there were no muslims knocking around to disagree with Paul's message.

: : History shows they are both inconsistant, Am I inconsistant because I quote things they say inconsistantly, Prehaps, although I am no judge or expert, although I am openminded and accept Straight Truth:

: Your first statement is unqualified, and until it is, I refuse to give it credence. As for your second, only time will tell.

: <i>That which was  from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, concerning the Word of life - the life was manifested, and we have seen, and bear witness, and declare to you that eternal life which was with the Father and was manifested to us - that which we have seen and heard we declare to you, that you also may have fellowship with us; and truly our fellowship is with the Father and with his Son Jesus Christ. And these things we write to you that your joy may be full.</i>

: God bless,

: Jonathan.