Re: Unity against Against Satan (i.e. Materialism)

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Posted by Mohamed Ghounem on February 27, 1998 at 03:47:18:

In Reply to: Re: Unity against Against Satan (i.e. Materialism) posted by Jonathan on February 22, 1998 at 01:04:47:

Dear Brother Jonathan,
Good Day Mate

the Qur'an has been unchanged for over 1,400 years.

{Really? How do you know? Do you have the first copy?}

Islamic Muesems Do, and the Writing within is Exactly the Same as it is today, the same letters and all.

: The Qur'an does not contradict the central message of the Old Testament which is that there is One Creator without partners.

{Please define partners, I'm not exactly sure what you mean.}

What I mean is what Christian scholars are denieing, that is that God is 3 in one, God the Father, son and spirit, Three separate and the same, equal as one.

You, going against what the scholars are saying: http://members.aol.com/IslamTeam/tri.htm
are claiming that God is not whole without the son and is not whole without the spirit, that the Father is not God without His equal parters, the son and spirit.

: The Jewish scribes (why you ask) due to vanity, changed the name Ishmael into Isaac. This does not change the message of a Supreme without partners.

{Proove it. Where can you show me an authentic text which backs up your claim?}

We do not have to go back far, proof of the name change can be found in the KJV
http://debate.org.uk/weboard/debate/messages/1084.html

{As for you reference to vanity and the Jewish scribes, I don't think you could say that the differences in the story of Jonah have anything to do with vanity.}

I havn't researched that one, make it as a new post and I would be happy to look into it.

I wrote: Is Unity so bad to you brother Jonathan that even as I quote it from the Bible, from your favorite twosome (John and Paul), even they preach it and you reject it because you would rather hold on the false anti-unity, anti-Old Testament message that God was a man and we no longer follow works.

You responded; {Unity is great. I would love to say to you "Oh, brother Mohammed, although our scriptures contradict one another, and although there are gross differences between the message of the Qur'an and that of the Bible,}

I respond: The Qur'an and the Bible are not as different as you grossly suggest, for example:

From: James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ. To: Jewish Christians scattered everywhere. Greetings!

Qur'an 5:111 "Recall that I inspired the disciples: 'You shall believe in Me and My messenger Jesus. They said, 'We have believed, and bear witness that we are submitters.' "

Luke 10:16 Then he Jesus said to the disciples, "Those who welcome you are welcoming me. And those who reject you are rejecting me. And those who reject me are rejecting God who sent me."

Qur'an 4:159 Everyone among the people of the scripture was required to believe in him* before his death. On the Day of Resurrection, he will be a witness against them.
__________________________________________________
Bible; God wishes to lighten your burden, for the human being is created weak.

But when you ask Him, be sure that you really expect Him to tell you, for a doubtful mind will be as unsettled as a wave of the sea that is driven and tossed by the wind;
___________________________________________________
Qur'an: When a sura was revealed, some of them would say, "Did this sura strengthen the faith of anyone among you?" Indeed, it did strengthen the faith of those who believed, and they rejoice in any revelation.

As for those who harbored doubts in their hearts, it actually added unholiness to their unholiness, and they died as disbelievers.
____________________________________________________

and many more http://members.aol.com/RamiKen/compa.htm

You wrote; and although you have no proof that the Bible has been altered, but continue making wild accusations about the validity of the Word of God, for the sake of unity I will put all my misgivings aside, and brush over all these things so that we may unite over the one (or is it two) doctrines we agree on." But I'm afraid that my conscience does not permit me so to do. Yes, I am all for unity, but between you and I, there is precious little ground to unite over.}

I respond: Will you not Unite with me, yet you would call your self in unison with Christians who also discover tampering in the Bible, for example:

Dr. W Graham Scroggie of the Moody Bible Institute, Chicago, a prestigious Christian evangelical mission, says:

"..Yes, the Bible is human, although some out of zeal which is not according to knowledge, have denied this. Those books have passed through the minds of men, are written in the language of men, were penned by the hands of men and bear in their style the characteristics of men...."

Another Christian scholar, Kenneth Cragg, the Anglican Bishop of Jerusalem, says:

"...Not so the New testament...There is condensation and editing; there is choice reproduction and witness. The Gospels have come through the mind of the church behind the authors. They represent experience and history..." "The Call of the Minaret," Kenneth Cragg, p 277

Will you then not Unite with Christians, Muslims or Jews?

You wrote;{I will not unite with anyone or anything which denies the deity of Christ, for to do so would be the worst form of blasphemy. For me to say that Jesus is not God is to deny everything that God has done in my life. I would be lying to myself, and would be untrue to the love which God has shown to me in sending his Son to die in my place.}

Well, aren't we just so exclusive :-) For your info, Not all Christians as you claim, believe in the divinity of Jesus, For example:

In the British newspaper the "Daily News" 25/6/84 under the heading "Shock survey of Anglican Bishops" We read

"More than half of England's Anglican Bishops say that Christians are not obliged to believe that Jesus Christ was God, according to a survey published today. The pole of 31 of England's 39 bishops shows that many of them think that Christ's miracles, the virgin birth and the resurrection might not have happened exactly as described in the Bible. Only 11 of the bishops insisted that Christians must regard Christ as both God and man, while 19 said it was sufficient to regard Jesus as 'God's supreme agent'"

Will you then not Unite with Christians, Muslims or Jews?

You wrote;{My king (Jesus) has ordered that I go into the world and make disciples, baptising them in the Name of the Father, and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, the Triune God. God is One, Amen, I can unite with you on that score. I do not believe in three gods, I believe in one God, Father, Son and Holy Spirit. Three in one.}

Again, Christians just don't seem to have the same views as you brother Jonathan, for example:

In "The Dictionary of the Bible," bearing the Nihil Obstat, Imprimatur, and Imprimi Potest (official Church seals of approval), we read:

"the trinity of God is defined by the Church as the belief that in God are three persons who subsist in one nature. That belief as so defined was reached only in the 4th and 5th centuries AD and hence is not explicitly and formally a biblical belief." The Dictionary of the Bible, John L. McKenzie, S.J., p. 899

also

"Because the Trinity is such an important part of later Christian doctrine, it is striking that the term does not appear in the New Testament. Likewise, the developed concept of three coequal partners in the Godhead found in later creedal formulations cannot be clearly detected within the confines of the canon. While the New Testament writers say a great deal about God, Jesus, and the Spirit of each, no New Testament writer expounds on the relationship among the three in the detail that later Christian writers do." The Oxford Companion to the Bible, Bruce Metzger and Michael Coogan, p. 782

Will you then not Unite with Christians, Muslims or Jews?

Inconclusion, your claims of the divinity of Jesus, the Tri-Une God, and the untampered with Bible, is refuted by Christians as Well as Muslims and Jews, will you then not unite with anyone who disagrees with you (even Christian SCHolars) or will you Praise One Lord without partners, and believe in Prophet Muhammad and the Divine Origin of the Holy Qur'an.

Imagine for a minute that Jesus did not want to be worshipped and only wanted you and All Christians to ONly worship Allah, wouldn't you owe it to yourself to make sure that Jesus is God or not, You do owe it to yourself to put your faith in One.

Peace and Blessings,
Your Brother in Islam: Mohamed

Follow Ups:

Re: Unity against Against Satan (i.e. Materialism) Jonathan 3/03/98 (0)

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Subject : Re: Re: Unity against Against Satan (i.e. Materialism)

Comments:
: Dear Brother Jonathan,
: Good Day Mate

: the Qur'an has been unchanged for over 1,400 years.

: {Really? How do you know? Do you have the first copy?}

: Islamic Muesems Do, and the Writing within is Exactly the Same as it is today, the same letters and all.

: : The Qur'an does not contradict the central message of the Old Testament which is that there is One Creator without partners.

: {Please define partners, I'm not exactly sure what you mean.}

: What I mean is what Christian scholars are denieing, that is that God is 3 in one, God the Father, son and spirit, Three separate and the same, equal as one.

: You, going against what the scholars are saying: http://members.aol.com/IslamTeam/tri.htm
: are claiming that God is not whole without the son and is not whole without the spirit, that the Father is not God without His equal parters, the son and spirit.

: : The Jewish scribes (why you ask) due to vanity, changed the name Ishmael into Isaac. This does not change the message of a Supreme without partners.

: {Proove it. Where can you show me an authentic text which backs up your claim?}

: We do not have to go back far, proof of the name change can be found in the KJV
: http://debate.org.uk/weboard/debate/messages/1084.html

: {As for you reference to vanity and the Jewish scribes, I don't think you could say that the differences in the story of Jonah have anything to do with vanity.}

: I havn't researched that one, make it as a new post and I would be happy to look into it.

: I wrote: Is Unity so bad to you brother Jonathan that even as I quote it from the Bible, from your favorite twosome (John and Paul), even they preach it and you reject it because you would rather hold on the false anti-unity, anti-Old Testament message that God was a man and we no longer follow works.

: You responded; {Unity is great. I would love to say to you "Oh, brother Mohammed, although our scriptures contradict one another, and although there are gross differences between the message of the Qur'an and that of the Bible,}

: I respond: The Qur'an and the Bible are not as different as you grossly suggest, for example:

: From: James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ. To: Jewish Christians scattered everywhere. Greetings!

: Qur'an 5:111 "Recall that I inspired the disciples: 'You shall believe in Me and My messenger Jesus. They said, 'We have believed, and bear witness that we are submitters.' "

: Luke 10:16 Then he Jesus said to the disciples, "Those who welcome you are welcoming me. And those who reject you are rejecting me. And those who reject me are rejecting God who sent me."

: Qur'an 4:159 Everyone among the people of the scripture was required to believe in him* before his death. On the Day of Resurrection, he will be a witness against them.
: __________________________________________________
: Bible; God wishes to lighten your burden, for the human being is created weak.

: But when you ask Him, be sure that you really expect Him to tell you, for a doubtful mind will be as unsettled as a wave of the sea that is driven and tossed by the wind;
: ___________________________________________________
: Qur'an: When a sura was revealed, some of them would say, "Did this sura strengthen the faith of anyone among you?" Indeed, it did strengthen the faith of those who believed, and they rejoice in any revelation.

: As for those who harbored doubts in their hearts, it actually added unholiness to their unholiness, and they died as disbelievers.
: ____________________________________________________

: and many more http://members.aol.com/RamiKen/compa.htm

: You wrote; and although you have no proof that the Bible has been altered, but continue making wild accusations about the validity of the Word of God, for the sake of unity I will put all my misgivings aside, and brush over all these things so that we may unite over the one (or is it two) doctrines we agree on." But I'm afraid that my conscience does not permit me so to do. Yes, I am all for unity, but between you and I, there is precious little ground to unite over.}

: I respond: Will you not Unite with me, yet you would call your self in unison with Christians who also discover tampering in the Bible, for example:

: Dr. W Graham Scroggie of the Moody Bible Institute, Chicago, a prestigious Christian evangelical mission, says:

: "..Yes, the Bible is human, although some out of zeal which is not according to knowledge, have denied this. Those books have passed through the minds of men, are written in the language of men, were penned by the hands of men and bear in their style the characteristics of men...."

: Another Christian scholar, Kenneth Cragg, the Anglican Bishop of Jerusalem, says:

: "...Not so the New testament...There is condensation and editing; there is choice reproduction and witness. The Gospels have come through the mind of the church behind the authors. They represent experience and history..." "The Call of the Minaret," Kenneth Cragg, p 277

: Will you then not Unite with Christians, Muslims or Jews?

: You wrote;{I will not unite with anyone or anything which denies the deity of Christ, for to do so would be the worst form of blasphemy. For me to say that Jesus is not God is to deny everything that God has done in my life. I would be lying to myself, and would be untrue to the love which God has shown to me in sending his Son to die in my place.}

: Well, aren't we just so exclusive :-) For your info, Not all Christians as you claim, believe in the divinity of Jesus, For example:

: In the British newspaper the "Daily News" 25/6/84 under the heading "Shock survey of Anglican Bishops" We read

: "More than half of England's Anglican Bishops say that Christians are not obliged to believe that Jesus Christ was God, according to a survey published today. The pole of 31 of England's 39 bishops shows that many of them think that Christ's miracles, the virgin birth and the resurrection might not have happened exactly as described in the Bible. Only 11 of the bishops insisted that Christians must regard Christ as both God and man, while 19 said it was sufficient to regard Jesus as 'God's supreme agent'"

: Will you then not Unite with Christians, Muslims or Jews?

: You wrote;{My king (Jesus) has ordered that I go into the world and make disciples, baptising them in the Name of the Father, and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, the Triune God. God is One, Amen, I can unite with you on that score. I do not believe in three gods, I believe in one God, Father, Son and Holy Spirit. Three in one.}

: Again, Christians just don't seem to have the same views as you brother Jonathan, for example:

: In "The Dictionary of the Bible," bearing the Nihil Obstat, Imprimatur, and Imprimi Potest (official Church seals of approval), we read:

: "the trinity of God is defined by the Church as the belief that in God are three persons who subsist in one nature. That belief as so defined was reached only in the 4th and 5th centuries AD and hence is not explicitly and formally a biblical belief." The Dictionary of the Bible, John L. McKenzie, S.J., p. 899

: also

: "Because the Trinity is such an important part of later Christian doctrine, it is striking that the term does not appear in the New Testament. Likewise, the developed concept of three coequal partners in the Godhead found in later creedal formulations cannot be clearly detected within the confines of the canon. While the New Testament writers say a great deal about God, Jesus, and the Spirit of each, no New Testament writer expounds on the relationship among the three in the detail that later Christian writers do." The Oxford Companion to the Bible, Bruce Metzger and Michael Coogan, p. 782

: Will you then not Unite with Christians, Muslims or Jews?

: Inconclusion, your claims of the divinity of Jesus, the Tri-Une God, and the untampered with Bible, is refuted by Christians as Well as Muslims and Jews, will you then not unite with anyone who disagrees with you (even Christian SCHolars) or will you Praise One Lord without partners, and believe in Prophet Muhammad and the Divine Origin of the Holy Qur'an.

: Imagine for a minute that Jesus did not want to be worshipped and only wanted you and All Christians to ONly worship Allah, wouldn't you owe it to yourself to make sure that Jesus is God or not, You do owe it to yourself to put your faith in One.

: Peace and Blessings,
: Your Brother in Islam: Mohamed

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