Re: Unity against Against Satan (i.e. Materialism)

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Posted by Jonathan on March 03, 1998 at 15:00:14:

In Reply to: Re: Unity against Against Satan (i.e. Materialism) posted by Mohamed Ghounem on February 27, 1998 at 03:47:18:

: We do not have to go back far, proof of the name change can be found in the KJV
: http://debate.org.uk/weboard/debate/messages/1084.html

Doesn't proove your point, mate.

: I respond: The Qur'an and the Bible are not as different as you grossly suggest, for example:

: From: James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ. To: Jewish Christians scattered everywhere. Greetings!

: Qur'an 5:111 "Recall that I inspired the disciples: 'You shall believe in Me and My messenger Jesus. They said, 'We have believed, and bear witness that we are submitters.' "

: Luke 10:16 Then he Jesus said to the disciples, "Those who welcome you are welcoming me. And those who reject you are rejecting me. And those who reject me are rejecting God who sent me."

: Qur'an 4:159 Everyone among the people of the scripture was required to believe in him* before his death. On the Day of Resurrection, he will be a witness against them.

Sorry, but I don't see what these verses show. If this is meant to be proof of the meesage of the Bible and of the Qur'an being the same, then I'm not convinced.

: Bible; God wishes to lighten your burden, for the human being is created weak.

Is this meant to be a quote? I don't know every verse off by heart, but that one doesn't sound familiar. Chapter and verse?
Are you refering to Jesus telling his disciples to take his yolk upon them and learn from him? Matt 11:28-30

: But when you ask Him, be sure that you really expect Him to tell you, for a doubtful mind will be as unsettled as a wave of the sea that is driven and tossed by the wind;

: ___________________________________________________
: Qur'an: When a sura was revealed, some of them would say, "Did this sura strengthen the faith of anyone among you?" Indeed, it did strengthen the faith of those who believed, and they rejoice in any revelation.

: As for those who harbored doubts in their hearts, it actually added unholiness to their unholiness, and they died as disbelievers.

These aren't really proving anything, because at the end of the day, I believe that Jesus is the Son of God, because of the prophecies of the old testament and also the gospels, and you say that every scripture I have has been corrupted. This statement of yours is not founded on any hard facts. If you have hard proof then bring it here for us to discuss.

:
: You wrote; and although you have no proof that the Bible has been altered, but continue making wild accusations about the validity of the Word of God, for the sake of unity I will put all my misgivings aside, and brush over all these things so that we may unite over the one (or is it two) doctrines we agree on." But I'm afraid that my conscience does not permit me so to do. Yes, I am all for unity, but between you and I, there is precious little ground to unite over.}

: I respond: Will you not Unite with me, yet you would call your self in unison with Christians who also discover tampering in the Bible, for example:

: Dr. W Graham Scroggie of the Moody Bible Institute, Chicago, a prestigious Christian evangelical mission, says:

: "..Yes, the Bible is human, although some out of zeal which is not according to knowledge, have denied this. Those books have passed through the minds of men, are written in the language of men, were penned by the hands of men and bear in their style the characteristics of men...."

What he says here does not back up what you're saying. To me, he seems to be saying that the Bible was written by men, which is true, and not that it has been changed. The Bible was written by men inspired by the Holy Spirit of God.

: Another Christian scholar, Kenneth Cragg, the Anglican Bishop of Jerusalem, says:

: "...Not so the New testament...There is condensation and editing; there is choice reproduction and witness. The Gospels have come through the mind of the church behind the authors. They represent experience and history..." "The Call of the Minaret," Kenneth Cragg, p 277

Never heard of him, I don't know him from Adam, and without reading the book, I can't pass comment. If I ever see it, I'll try to read it to see what he means by his statement.

: Will you then not Unite with Christians, Muslims or Jews?

: You wrote;{I will not unite with anyone or anything which denies the deity of Christ, for to do so would be the worst form of blasphemy. For me to say that Jesus is not God is to deny everything that God has done in my life. I would be lying to myself, and would be untrue to the love which God has shown to me in sending his Son to die in my place.}

: Well, aren't we just so exclusive :-) For your info, Not all Christians as you claim, believe in the divinity of Jesus, For example:
: In the British newspaper the "Daily News" 25/6/84 under the heading "Shock survey of Anglican Bishops" We read
: "More than half of England's Anglican Bishops say that Christians are not obliged to believe that Jesus Christ was God, according to a survey published today. The pole of 31 of England's 39 bishops shows that many of them think that Christ's miracles, the virgin birth and the resurrection might not have happened exactly as described in the Bible. Only 11 of the bishops insisted that Christians must regard Christ as both God and man, while 19 said it was sufficient to regard Jesus as 'God's supreme agent'"

That only proves that some people who claim to be Christians are not, and are wolves in sheep's clothing. Salvation is found in no other name.

: Will you then not Unite with Christians, Muslims or Jews?

: You wrote;{My king (Jesus) has ordered that I go into the world and make disciples, baptising them in the Name of the Father, and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, the Triune God. God is One, Amen, I can unite with you on that score. I do not believe in three gods, I believe in one God, Father, Son and Holy Spirit. Three in one.}

: Again, Christians just don't seem to have the same views as you brother Jonathan, for example:

: In "The Dictionary of the Bible," bearing the Nihil Obstat, Imprimatur, and Imprimi Potest (official Church seals of approval), we read:

: "the trinity of God is defined by the Church as the belief that in God are three persons who subsist in one nature. That belief as so defined was reached only in the 4th and 5th centuries AD and hence is not explicitly and formally a biblical belief." The Dictionary of the Bible, John L. McKenzie, S.J., p. 899

: also

: "Because the Trinity is such an important part of later Christian doctrine, it is striking that the term does not appear in the New Testament. Likewise, the developed concept of three coequal partners in the Godhead found in later creedal formulations cannot be clearly detected within the confines of the canon. While the New Testament writers say a great deal about God, Jesus, and the Spirit of each, no New Testament writer expounds on the relationship among the three in the detail that later Christian writers do." The Oxford Companion to the Bible, Bruce Metzger and Michael Coogan, p. 782

OK, lets think about this shall we. The early church did not have to define the doctrine of the trinity as such until people started to bring heretical ideas into the church. At this time the believers of the time had to decide exactly what they believed about the nature of God. The idea of trinity was never challenged until the third century, and so the doctrine did not have to be defined as such until then. That's how I see it, at least. If you don't agree then I'll try to find out more so that I can explain it to you.

: Inconclusion, your claims of the divinity of Jesus, the Tri-Une God, and the untampered with Bible, is refuted by Christians

If "christians" deny the deity of Christ, then they cannot be called Christians. That's like a Muslim not believing Mohammed to be a prophet.

: as Well as Muslims and Jews, will you then not unite with anyone who disagrees with you (even Christian SCHolars) or will you Praise One Lord without partners, and believe in Prophet Muhammad and the Divine Origin of the Holy Qur'an.

I'm not going to believe some scholar I've never heard of that you quote without the opprotunity to look carefully at what he says and evaluate whether or not he knows what he's talking about. Lots of so called scholars talk tosh.

There are plenty of scolars who agree with me (maybe that should be said the other way round).

I praise the Creator of heaven and Earth, the Almighty, the Everlasting, Eternal One, Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

: Imagine for a minute that Jesus did not want to be worshipped and only wanted you and All Christians to ONly worship Allah, wouldn't you owe it to yourself to make sure that Jesus is God or not, You do owe it to yourself to put your faith in One.

Imagine? Read 2 Cor 10:5.

Why imagine something that's not true?

I put my faith in God, I trust in Him. I know my redeemer lives. I know that I have a living relationship with God. I pray that you may come into the same relationship with God, our maker.

God bless,

Jonathan.

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Subject : Re: Re: Unity against Against Satan (i.e. Materialism)

Comments:
:
: : We do not have to go back far, proof of the name change can be found in the KJV
: : http://debate.org.uk/weboard/debate/messages/1084.html

: Doesn't proove your point, mate.

:
: : I respond: The Qur'an and the Bible are not as different as you grossly suggest, for example:

: : From: James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ. To: Jewish Christians scattered everywhere. Greetings!

: : Qur'an 5:111 "Recall that I inspired the disciples: 'You shall believe in Me and My messenger Jesus. They said, 'We have believed, and bear witness that we are submitters.' "

: : Luke 10:16 Then he Jesus said to the disciples, "Those who welcome you are welcoming me. And those who reject you are rejecting me. And those who reject me are rejecting God who sent me."

: : Qur'an 4:159 Everyone among the people of the scripture was required to believe in him* before his death. On the Day of Resurrection, he will be a witness against them.

: Sorry, but I don't see what these verses show. If this is meant to be proof of the meesage of the Bible and of the Qur'an being the same, then I'm not convinced.

: : Bible; God wishes to lighten your burden, for the human being is created weak.

: Is this meant to be a quote? I don't know every verse off by heart, but that one doesn't sound familiar. Chapter and verse?
: Are you refering to Jesus telling his disciples to take his yolk upon them and learn from him? Matt 11:28-30

: : But when you ask Him, be sure that you really expect Him to tell you, for a doubtful mind will be as unsettled as a wave of the sea that is driven and tossed by the wind;

: : ___________________________________________________
: : Qur'an: When a sura was revealed, some of them would say, "Did this sura strengthen the faith of anyone among you?" Indeed, it did strengthen the faith of those who believed, and they rejoice in any revelation.

: : As for those who harbored doubts in their hearts, it actually added unholiness to their unholiness, and they died as disbelievers.

: These aren't really proving anything, because at the end of the day, I believe that Jesus is the Son of God, because of the prophecies of the old testament and also the gospels, and you say that every scripture I have has been corrupted. This statement of yours is not founded on any hard facts. If you have hard proof then bring it here for us to discuss.

: :
: : You wrote; and although you have no proof that the Bible has been altered, but continue making wild accusations about the validity of the Word of God, for the sake of unity I will put all my misgivings aside, and brush over all these things so that we may unite over the one (or is it two) doctrines we agree on." But I'm afraid that my conscience does not permit me so to do. Yes, I am all for unity, but between you and I, there is precious little ground to unite over.}

: : I respond: Will you not Unite with me, yet you would call your self in unison with Christians who also discover tampering in the Bible, for example:

: : Dr. W Graham Scroggie of the Moody Bible Institute, Chicago, a prestigious Christian evangelical mission, says:

: : "..Yes, the Bible is human, although some out of zeal which is not according to knowledge, have denied this. Those books have passed through the minds of men, are written in the language of men, were penned by the hands of men and bear in their style the characteristics of men...."

: What he says here does not back up what you're saying. To me, he seems to be saying that the Bible was written by men, which is true, and not that it has been changed. The Bible was written by men inspired by the Holy Spirit of God.

: : Another Christian scholar, Kenneth Cragg, the Anglican Bishop of Jerusalem, says:

: : "...Not so the New testament...There is condensation and editing; there is choice reproduction and witness. The Gospels have come through the mind of the church behind the authors. They represent experience and history..." "The Call of the Minaret," Kenneth Cragg, p 277

: Never heard of him, I don't know him from Adam, and without reading the book, I can't pass comment. If I ever see it, I'll try to read it to see what he means by his statement.

: : Will you then not Unite with Christians, Muslims or Jews?

: : You wrote;{I will not unite with anyone or anything which denies the deity of Christ, for to do so would be the worst form of blasphemy. For me to say that Jesus is not God is to deny everything that God has done in my life. I would be lying to myself, and would be untrue to the love which God has shown to me in sending his Son to die in my place.}

: : Well, aren't we just so exclusive :-) For your info, Not all Christians as you claim, believe in the divinity of Jesus, For example:
: : In the British newspaper the "Daily News" 25/6/84 under the heading "Shock survey of Anglican Bishops" We read
: : "More than half of England's Anglican Bishops say that Christians are not obliged to believe that Jesus Christ was God, according to a survey published today. The pole of 31 of England's 39 bishops shows that many of them think that Christ's miracles, the virgin birth and the resurrection might not have happened exactly as described in the Bible. Only 11 of the bishops insisted that Christians must regard Christ as both God and man, while 19 said it was sufficient to regard Jesus as 'God's supreme agent'"

: That only proves that some people who claim to be Christians are not, and are wolves in sheep's clothing. Salvation is found in no other name.

: : Will you then not Unite with Christians, Muslims or Jews?

: : You wrote;{My king (Jesus) has ordered that I go into the world and make disciples, baptising them in the Name of the Father, and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, the Triune God. God is One, Amen, I can unite with you on that score. I do not believe in three gods, I believe in one God, Father, Son and Holy Spirit. Three in one.}

: : Again, Christians just don't seem to have the same views as you brother Jonathan, for example:

: : In "The Dictionary of the Bible," bearing the Nihil Obstat, Imprimatur, and Imprimi Potest (official Church seals of approval), we read:

: : "the trinity of God is defined by the Church as the belief that in God are three persons who subsist in one nature. That belief as so defined was reached only in the 4th and 5th centuries AD and hence is not explicitly and formally a biblical belief." The Dictionary of the Bible, John L. McKenzie, S.J., p. 899

: : also

: : "Because the Trinity is such an important part of later Christian doctrine, it is striking that the term does not appear in the New Testament. Likewise, the developed concept of three coequal partners in the Godhead found in later creedal formulations cannot be clearly detected within the confines of the canon. While the New Testament writers say a great deal about God, Jesus, and the Spirit of each, no New Testament writer expounds on the relationship among the three in the detail that later Christian writers do." The Oxford Companion to the Bible, Bruce Metzger and Michael Coogan, p. 782

: OK, lets think about this shall we. The early church did not have to define the doctrine of the trinity as such until people started to bring heretical ideas into the church. At this time the believers of the time had to decide exactly what they believed about the nature of God. The idea of trinity was never challenged until the third century, and so the doctrine did not have to be defined as such until then. That's how I see it, at least. If you don't agree then I'll try to find out more so that I can explain it to you.

: : Inconclusion, your claims of the divinity of Jesus, the Tri-Une God, and the untampered with Bible, is refuted by Christians

: If "christians" deny the deity of Christ, then they cannot be called Christians. That's like a Muslim not believing Mohammed to be a prophet.

: : as Well as Muslims and Jews, will you then not unite with anyone who disagrees with you (even Christian SCHolars) or will you Praise One Lord without partners, and believe in Prophet Muhammad and the Divine Origin of the Holy Qur'an.

: I'm not going to believe some scholar I've never heard of that you quote without the opprotunity to look carefully at what he says and evaluate whether or not he knows what he's talking about. Lots of so called scholars talk tosh.

: There are plenty of scolars who agree with me (maybe that should be said the other way round).

: I praise the Creator of heaven and Earth, the Almighty, the Everlasting, Eternal One, Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

: : Imagine for a minute that Jesus did not want to be worshipped and only wanted you and All Christians to ONly worship Allah, wouldn't you owe it to yourself to make sure that Jesus is God or not, You do owe it to yourself to put your faith in One.

: Imagine? Read 2 Cor 10:5.

: Why imagine something that's not true?

: I put my faith in God, I trust in Him. I know my redeemer lives. I know that I have a living relationship with God. I pray that you may come into the same relationship with God, our maker.

: God bless,

: Jonathan.

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