Posted by Jonathan on February 24, 1998 at 17:23:31:
In Reply to: Re: Unity against Against Satan (i.e. Materialism) posted by damon on February 24, 1998 at 16:37:37:
: : the Qur'an has been unchanged for over 1,400 years.
: : Really? How do you know? Do you have the first copy?
: Damon: But the same could be said for the bible. Do you Have the Originals? Why wouldn't God Preserve them if they were His perfect word? And even the bible admits that different texts dont have certain verses or use different words
That is my point, that just saying that the scriptures have been changed is a daft argument, because I could say the same about the Qur'an.
As for your point about different versions having or not having portions of scripture, Biblical archaeologists are amazed again and again at how accurate the scriptures we have today. There are so few discrepancies that they marvel at how well the texts have been preserved down the years. Yes, there may be a the odd spelling error, but this is to be expected. Over the whole breadth of documents and ancient manuscripts, we can see where copyig errors may have been made, and the way we decide whic is correct is to take the earliest version where we can.
: : The notion that Jesus is God has not "crept into the Gospel" it is at its very root. If you say that Jesus is not God, then you say that the gospels are not just corrupt, but that they are a fabrication from begining to end.
: Damon: Not necessarily, the part of Jesus's teachings relating to Love (God and man) could be true. Maybe on the statements of his divinity and death sacrifice are false (and very similar to Mithraism/pagan religion strong in Tarsus at the time)
So you're saying that Jesus was only a prophet when he said stuff about love etc and not when he claimed to be the Son of God...can a prophet lie?
Or are you saying again that the Apostles and the other writers of the gospel were lying. If so, why? Why would they then die for what they knew to be a lie. I don't think that what you're implying adds up.
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: : Is man utterly sinful? Is man capable of obedience given that his very nature is fallen and has an inbuilt desire to move away from and rebel against God. Only God is good, how can you or I hope to earn our salvation through good works. For all have sinned and fall short of the Glory of God and The wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
: Damon: Our salvation comes from the mercy and forgiveness of God. Nothing we can do can earn it. But when we understand the mercy of God then we do good things. One could say that Christians "earn" their salvation through belief in Jesus as God, you still have to do something (ie believe).
No, even faith is a gift from God. Christianity is not belief in anything I do but trust in what God has done.
: : The Bible teaches that works on their own is not sufficient to gain our salvation. Could you ever be good enough to meet God's standard on your own, through your own efforts? The Bible says however that Faith without works is dead. Yes, that's right, without doing what God commands of us now that we are saved, we show by our inactivity or apathy that our faith, and hence our salvation are a figment of our own vain imaginations. There is nothing sadder that a person who thinks that they are right with God, and deceive no-one but themselves, because by their lives, they betray the state of their hearts.
: Damon: So do you have to do works or not?
You aren't following my argument, or maybe I'm not making myself clear. It's probably the latter, so I'll try to get what I'm saying across in a better way.
To quote James, Thus also faith by itself without works is dead...you believe there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe-and tremble!
Works do not save. Faith, a gift from God saved us. But faith without works is as a stillborn child. If my supposed faith in God does not cause a change to take place in my life then my faith is not real. I do good works not to gain salvation, but because my life has been changed by the power of the Almighty God who raised Jesus Christ, His only Son, from the dead. For I needed to be brought into life since I was dead in my sin. there was nothing within me capable of saving myself, and so God in His mercy provided the means by which I could be saved, through faith in His dear Son.
: Damon: proof that the bible was altered? Look at the gospels, even different versions state in the notes that some manuscripts do not contain certain parts.
Yes, we are honest that there are some manuscripts which do not contain all of the gospels. If you were copying out a large chunk of a passage of scripture, for a sermon, or for another purpose, then you might not copy everything out. We don't know that every fragment we have was meant to be a complete copy.
Then look at the resurrection accounts (angels, angel, men) and the passover (was he crucified after the passover -matt; or before on the DAY OF PREPARATION--John)
I don't have time to go into that now, but it is something that I have looked into before, and I have confirmed to myself that although the accounts do differ, the differences do not also mean contradiction. Give me a little time and I will endeavor to answer you on this point.
: Damon: and is the christian faith united? So God didnt answer his own prayer?????
There are things which we disagree on between denominations. Mainly these are to do with differences in interpretation of secondary or tertiary issues, but all true Christians are united around the deity of Christ and the efficacy of his atoning work for us on the Cross. I will not be drawn into a debate over where different denomination are right or wrong, I am not in a place to judge, and I am only a witness to what I do know and the truth of God's Word.
God bless, Damon, I hope that I have answered your points adequately. Please feel free to ask for clarification.
Jonathan