Posted by damon on February 24, 1998 at 16:37:37:
In Reply to: Re: Unity against Against Satan (i.e. Materialism) posted by Jonathan on February 22, 1998 at 01:04:47:
: the Qur'an has been unchanged for over 1,400 years.
: Really? How do you know? Do you have the first copy?
Damon: But the same could be said for the bible. Do you Have the Originals? Why wouldn't God Preserve them if they were His perfect word? And even the bible admits that different texts dont have certain verses or use different words
: i.e. The Qur'an has a different message to the Old Testament and so you brush any discrepancies under the carpet by saying that the Old Testament has been tampered with, without any proof of what has been tampered with, by whom or with any explanation as to why. As for you reference to vanity and the Jewish scribes, I don't think you could say that the differences in the story of Jonah have anything to do with vanity.
: : The same goes for the Gospel, the notion that Jesus is God had crept into the Gospel and that God is three, these notions as noted above, divide humanity, the Qur'an removes these false notions, therefore as history shows, uniting humanity, yestaurday is gone brother Jonathan, you can not change it, therefore learn from it.
: The notion that Jesus is God has not "crept into the Gospel" it is at its very root. If you say that Jesus is not God, then you say that the gospels are not just corrupt, but that they are a fabrication from begining to end.
Damon: Not necessarily, the part of Jesus's teachings relating to Love (God and man) could be true. Maybe on the statements of his divinity and death sacrifice are false (and very similar to Mithraism/pagan religion strong in Tarsus at the time)
: God became as man and dwelt amongst us to redeem us of our sin, a concept which you cannot get a grip of because you ultimately believe that you can earn God's favour. As for preaching against works, I don't see where you get the idea that the NT does not advocate works. What the Scriptures tell us is that we cannot be saved by our works.
: Is man utterly sinful? Is man capable of obedience given that his very nature is fallen and has an inbuilt desire to move away from and rebel against God. Only God is good, how can you or I hope to earn our salvation through good works. For all have sinned and fall short of the Glory of God and The wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Damon: Our salvation comes from the mercy and forgiveness of God. Nothing we can do can earn it. But when we understand the mercy of God then we do good things. One could say that Christians "earn" their salvation through belief in Jesus as God, you still have to do something (ie believe).
: The Bible teaches that works on their own is not sufficient to gain our salvation. Could you ever be good enough to meet God's standard on your own, through your own efforts? The Bible says however that Faith without works is dead. Yes, that's right, without doing what God commands of us now that we are saved, we show by our inactivity or apathy that our faith, and hence our salvation are a figment of our own vain imaginations. There is nothing sadder that a person who thinks that they are right with God, and deceive no-one but themselves, because by their lives, they betray the state of their hearts.
Damon: So do you have to do works or not?
: Unity is great. I would love to say to you "Oh, brother Mohammed, although our scriptures contradict one another, and although there are gross differences between the message of the Qur'an and that of the Bible, and although you have no proof that the Bible has been altered, but continue making wild accusations about the validity of the Word of God, for the sake of unity I will put all my misgivings aside, and brush over all these things so that we may unite over the one (or is it two) doctrines we agree on." But I'm afraid that my conscience does not permit me so to do. Yes, I am all for unity, but between you and I, there is precious little ground to unite over.
Damon: proof that the bible was altered? Look at the gospels, even different versions state in the notes that some manuscripts do not contain certain parts. Then look at the resurrection accounts (angels, angel, men) and the passover (was he crucified after the passover -matt; or before on the DAY OF PREPARATION--John)
: Now this is another verse which you have taken out of context (something at which you truly excel!). This is Jesus praying to the Father, asking that the Father would unite those who believe in Jesus through the word of the gospels. Now, you say that you believe in Jesus, and so I should therefore be at unity with you. However, Jesus prayed that I would have unity with those who believed in him through the word of the Aostles i.e. the Gospels. Now, you have said time and time again that you cannot accept (as yet) the fact that Jesus is proclaimed not just as prophet, but as prophet, priest and King inthe the Gospels, and yet more, that he is proclaimed as God's Anointed One, the very Son of God. I will not unite with anyone or anything which denies the deity of Christ, for to do so would be the worst form of blasphemy. For me to say that Jesus is not God is to deny everything that God has done in my life. I would be lying to myself, and would be untrue to the love which God has shown to me in sending his Son to die in my place.
Damon: and is the christian faith united? So God didnt answer his own prayer?????
Blessings Bright
damon