Re: The Burden of Proof

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Posted by Mohamed Ghounem on February 20, 1998 at 04:26:34:

In Reply to: Re: The Burden of Proof posted by Mike on February 20, 1998 at 00:58:09:

Dear Brother Mike,
Hello again and again

Mike: In logic, as well as in law historical precedent means that the burden of proof rests on those who set forth new theories and not on those whose ideas have already been accepted. That which is already recognized as truth judges any and all new claims to truth. Since Islam follows Christianity, the burden of proof rests upon the Muslim to first prove, to the Christian, the truth claims of Islam such as Allah is God, the Qur'an is the Word of God etc…

Mohamed: You don't have a single reason in the Universe to be a Christian, You are worshipping a false God, Your Gospel contradicts the Old Testament, therefore you have no reason to be a Christian.

You falsely claim that the Gospel is accepted, this is another of many of your false statements, the Gospel is only accepted by Christians, not by Jews, therefore since the Jews were first given revelation, and they do not accept the Gospel, then Jesus is not from God, and You worshipping a false, cursed God according to the OT.

This is your reasoning, according to your logic, you are worshiping a cursed God if Christianity has to prove it self to the Jews.

Mike: Mohamed please explain to me how what you have written above correctly address my point regarding historical precedence and the burden of proof in establishing the appropriate framework for Christian-Muslim dialogues?

Mohamed: What is your point, go through these posts and pick a topic, any topic, do you have anything to add or is your vocabulary limmited to 'your right and I'm wrong', are you above 13 years old?

Mohamed: since you use a liar's reference then that makes you a Non-Christian also.

Mike: This is just another example of the logical fallacy of ad hominim.

Mohamed: Wow, besides being a liar, and Non-Christian, your also a hypocrite.

Mohamed: if you want your answers then explore "answering Christianity"

Mike: As I have mentioned before, you do not have to go to a website to answering my points of logic against your defense of Islam.

Mohamed: What are your points, I have yet to see anything writen by you I have been repeatingly asking what are your objections to Islam and then you babel about logical fallacy of ad hominim.

You do not know Islam or Christianity, you were raised as a Christian and don't have a clue.

Mohamed: the difference between us is that I am not prejudice like you.

Mike: I am not a bigot. We are both bound by the rules of logic that God has given us. The difference is that Christianity is consistent with logic whereas you have demonstrated Islam is not. Therefore you have no good reason to continue to be a Muslim.

Mohamed: Thank you, I needed a good laugh, Christianity=Logic is the biggest Lie on Earth, even real Christians after they can't answer the many illogical notions in Christianity, conclude "it is not meant for humans to understand"

For Example: God coming into the Earth through a Woman and then having himself killed so that the humans can contradict the teachings of the OT and all the previous prophets? Is this your logic, don't you clearly see that no logic in this world gives you reason to be a Christian.

Another example is that the Bible says the Earth is square, and does not believe in Evolusion, this is against logic and therefore you according to logic will be a Muslim.

Mike: No I am willing to answer question about Christianity but you must first play by the rules of logic.

Mohamed: You tell me you will only answer my questions towards Christianity only if I reject Islam, you only discuss Christianity with non-Muslims?

Mike: No it is not that I only discuss Christianity with non-Muslims, it just that the rules of logic, as God would have it, places the burden of proof on you and since you cannot defend Islam you have no reason to continue to be a Muslim.

Mohamed: I have a suprize for you, I have defended Islam logically, you have not. Therefore you do not have a single atom of a reason to be a Christian, even though your not a practising one.

Mike: Mohamed do you accept the burden of proof? If not why not? Until you answer the above contention all of your attempts to change the subject to the Bible only serves to demonstrate the utter absence of truth behind the claims of Islam. Once you open your mind and accept the reality that Islam is not true, I will do all I can to answer your questions and concerns about the Bible and Christianity.

Mohamed: You are the phoniest Christian I have ever met and I have met a bunch,

I second that.

Mohamed: if you do not want to answer my questions than don't because Priests can't answer them either nor your sites which I visited, and obviously neither can you.

Mike: Mohamed if you do not want to follow the rules of logic then it only shows that your belief is Islam is based on self conscious irrational grounds.

Mohamed: According to the teachings of the OT, the first half of the Bible, Muslims using the Qur'an, believe that Jesus is sent from God.

According to the teachings of the OT, Christians using the NT, are worshiping a curse, you ask a curse to clense your sins, you hang a curse around your neck, you attribute a curse as a son of God, and a curse as one third of God, that is according to the NT in relation to the OT which teaches any one who hangs on a tree is a "curse", do you want to worship a curse?

If not, accept the Truth, Islam is here to remove your curse.

Mike: Mohamed please understand my culture. In my culture, if you really love someone, you tell them the truth and that is why I will stand firm in obedience to God's will as expressed in historical precedence and the burden of proof as God would have it in Christian-Muslim dialogues.

Mohamed: You are under the curse, your God is not only false, but also a curse according to the OT, Islam respects Jesus and the OT, you do not want to accept Truth, you are cursed because you follow a cursed God.

God is not a man, My Allah does not hunger, does not bleed, does not cry to be saved from the cross, your God is false and cursed.

Believe in the Powerful God, remove the curse from Jesus, accept Islam.

Mohamed: Answer these tensions/discrepancies..

Mike: you are changing the subject again. This is logically invalid.

Mohamed: I have answered your questions, the polite thing to do is take your turn to answer, are you scared, admit that you can not answer the tensions and therefore have no reason what so ever to believe Jesus died on the cross. Why would Jesus beg and scream to be saved if Jesus was God. You have no reason to believe Jesus is your savior, Priests who are brave enough to accept the Truth, convert to Islam.

Mike: I will not believe your assertions that you have in fact explored the cites I listed until you provide proof like I have when I explored your references. For example, I cut and paste portions of your cite locations and I have directly addressed and even spelled out to you the arguments your reference uses.

Mohamed: Here is your proof that you and your refrences are phoney;

http://www.answering-islam.org/Bible/Contra/resurrect.html

5. Mary (the mother of James end doses) and Salome saw an angel
(= "a young man" in Mark) inside the tomb who announced the
resurrection and directed the women to tell the disciples
that Jesus would meet them in Galilee (Matt. 28: 5-7;
Mark 16: 5-7).

this is contradictory to other Gospel accounts, therefore, the entire event is fake and no one knows what really took place:

Who was at the tomb when they arrived? Matthew: One angel (28:2-7) Mark: One young man (16:5) Luke: Two men (24:4) John: Two angels (20:12)

Do you want more to prove you and your sites are fake, I don't give any micro or macro mash potatoes, I give straight facts to prove you have no reason to believe in a false cursed god.

Believe that Jesus is not cursed and is sent by Allah as a guide and miracle to humanity, not a son, not a god, not a curse, unless you still don't believe.

Am I still lying as you claim do you want more proof you and your sites are fake?

Mike: You should not call Jochen Katz a liar.

Mohamed: If you go through the posts on this site, Christians call Jochen a Liar also, that is the meaning of some one who is a proven deciever, May Allah have mercy on him and you.

Mike: If you approached this with an open mind you would no longer consider yourself a Muslim. I ask you, what good reasons do you have to continue to believe that Islam is true?

Mohamed: People like you, non-Christians who don't know anything about Islam or Christianity and biost.

I second that too.

Mike: You are not directly answering my point and the reason is that you know now that you have no good reason to continue to believe that Islam is true.

Mike: I challenge you again to answer the Islamic dilemma: Since Muslim claim that Allah is the same God as the Christian God whose word cannot be corrupted and since the Qur'an and the NT contradict each other on the historical fact of Jesus' crucifixion, Allah contradicts himself. Therefore, Allah cannot be God.

Mohamed: You are wrong according to your own Logic, the NT contradicts the OT the Qur'an does not contradict the OT, therefore the NT is wrong according to historical facts, you have no reason to worship Jesus, a cursed false god.

Allah wants us to stay on track the message of Abraham and Moses is contradicted in the NT but not in the Qur'an, therefore the NT is false, according to your logic and and Qur'an is true. YOu are misguided and have no reason to believe in the resurection. Jesus did not die on the cross and you are worshiping a false cursed god.

Mike: All that this would prove is that God contradicts himself twice: between the OT and the NT and between the NT and the Qur'an.

Mohamed: Allah does not contradict himself, men do, the OT and the Qur'an agree, because the NT is Mostly words of men who don't want to be circumsized, the NT contradicts the OT and the Qur'an, therefore, "Historically", the Qur'an is True while the NT is false, you have no reason to worship a false cursed god.

Mike: According to the burden of proof the Qur'an cannot confirm the OT but vice-versa. Also, you have yet to address the macro and micro linkages I noted in a previous post.

M: The Qur'an is compatible to the OT,

Mike: you are committing the fallacy carding stacking. You cannot point to those areas where the Qur'an agree while ignoring those area were they contradict. For example Isaac not Ismail was taken to be sacrifice. Noah's son did not stay behind and drown in the flood etc. See: http://answering-islam.org.uk/Quran/Contra/#bible

Mohamed: Those additional lies only reveals more human tampering for example it was Ishmael who was to be sacraficed, not Isaac: http://debate.org.uk/weboard/debate/messages/1084.html

You and your refrences are phoney, fake Christians, using lies to support your cursed god worshiping.

Dear brother Mike, do you see the above, to tell me I have no reason to believe is not aplicable to me and is fully compatible to your worshiping a man/creation.

Pardon my tone, I guess what comes around goes around :-)

Now I will show you even more proof that your references are fake and the Qur'an is the word of Allah, the one and only Creator:

In responce to: :http://www.answering-islam.org/Science/embryo.html

The actual word in question "Alaq" has a dual meaning in Arabic. Depending on the context it can either mean "clump of blood" or "leech." This can be seen for example in the Arabic-English Dictionary "A Dictionary of Modern Written Arabic" By J. Milton Cowan. On page 634, this word is
translated into English as "medicinal leech; leech, blood, blood clot." To find a much more comprehensive and authoritative study of this word we need to go to the 18 volume encyclopedia of Arabic language, Lisan Al-Arab. In volume 10, pages 261-270 we can find a detailed
treatment of this word, its root, its derivations, its usage, its various permutations, and their meanings. In these ten pages we are presented with roughly 160 different permutations of this word. Each differing only very slightly from the others in written or pronounced form, and with all of them being united by the common theme of different ways of "clinging or hanging"

Therefore, the original Arabic text is not in contradiction to science, it is actually another miracle because over 1,400 years ago, they did not have microscopes to know that embyos are a leech like oraganism.

This further proves your sites lack of knowledge on Arabic and false claims and leaves you to answer alot of my concerns about Christianity.

You have been answered, micro, macro, mickey mouse and all, now the burden is on you, you have no reason to worship a man, a cursed man according to the OT. If you do not answer my concerns in your next reply, you will show me that you are scared and have no answer, therefore showing me that you do not have a spec of dust of a reason to be a Christian.

Peace and Blessings,
Your Brother in Islam: Mohamed.

Follow Ups:

Re: The Burden of Proof Ryan 2/20/98 (1)
- Re: The Burden of Proof Mohamed Ghounem 2/20/98 (0)
Re: The Burden of Proof Mike 2/20/98 (6)
- Re: The Burden of Proof Mohamed Ghounem 2/20/98 (5)
  - Re: The Burden of Proof Mike 2/23/98 (4)
    - Re: The Burden of Proof Mohamed Ghounem 2/27/98 (0)
    - Re: The Burden of Proof RYA 2/26/98 (2)
      - Re: The Burden of Proof Mike 2/26/98 (1)
        
        Re: The Burden of Proof RYA 2/27/98 (0)

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Subject : Re: Re: The Burden of Proof

Comments:
: Dear Brother Mike,
: Hello again and again

: Mike: In logic, as well as in law historical precedent means that the burden of proof rests on those who set forth new theories and not on those whose ideas have already been accepted. That which is already recognized as truth judges any and all new claims to truth. Since Islam follows Christianity, the burden of proof rests upon the Muslim to first prove, to the Christian, the truth claims of Islam such as Allah is God, the Qur'an is the Word of God etc…

: Mohamed: You don't have a single reason in the Universe to be a Christian, You are worshipping a false God, Your Gospel contradicts the Old Testament, therefore you have no reason to be a Christian.

: You falsely claim that the Gospel is accepted, this is another of many of your false statements, the Gospel is only accepted by Christians, not by Jews, therefore since the Jews were first given revelation, and they do not accept the Gospel, then Jesus is not from God, and You worshipping a false, cursed God according to the OT.

: This is your reasoning, according to your logic, you are worshiping a cursed God if Christianity has to prove it self to the Jews.

: Mike: Mohamed please explain to me how what you have written above correctly address my point regarding historical precedence and the burden of proof in establishing the appropriate framework for Christian-Muslim dialogues?

: Mohamed: What is your point, go through these posts and pick a topic, any topic, do you have anything to add or is your vocabulary limmited to 'your right and I'm wrong', are you above 13 years old?

: Mohamed: since you use a liar's reference then that makes you a Non-Christian also.

: Mike: This is just another example of the logical fallacy of ad hominim.

: Mohamed: Wow, besides being a liar, and Non-Christian, your also a hypocrite.

: Mohamed: if you want your answers then explore "answering Christianity"

: Mike: As I have mentioned before, you do not have to go to a website to answering my points of logic against your defense of Islam.

: Mohamed: What are your points, I have yet to see anything writen by you I have been repeatingly asking what are your objections to Islam and then you babel about logical fallacy of ad hominim.

: You do not know Islam or Christianity, you were raised as a Christian and don't have a clue.

: Mohamed: the difference between us is that I am not prejudice like you.

: Mike: I am not a bigot. We are both bound by the rules of logic that God has given us. The difference is that Christianity is consistent with logic whereas you have demonstrated Islam is not. Therefore you have no good reason to continue to be a Muslim.

: Mohamed: Thank you, I needed a good laugh, Christianity=Logic is the biggest Lie on Earth, even real Christians after they can't answer the many illogical notions in Christianity, conclude "it is not meant for humans to understand"

: For Example: God coming into the Earth through a Woman and then having himself killed so that the humans can contradict the teachings of the OT and all the previous prophets? Is this your logic, don't you clearly see that no logic in this world gives you reason to be a Christian.

: Another example is that the Bible says the Earth is square, and does not believe in Evolusion, this is against logic and therefore you according to logic will be a Muslim.

: Mike: No I am willing to answer question about Christianity but you must first play by the rules of logic.

: Mohamed: You tell me you will only answer my questions towards Christianity only if I reject Islam, you only discuss Christianity with non-Muslims?

: Mike: No it is not that I only discuss Christianity with non-Muslims, it just that the rules of logic, as God would have it, places the burden of proof on you and since you cannot defend Islam you have no reason to continue to be a Muslim.

: Mohamed: I have a suprize for you, I have defended Islam logically, you have not. Therefore you do not have a single atom of a reason to be a Christian, even though your not a practising one.

: Mike: Mohamed do you accept the burden of proof? If not why not? Until you answer the above contention all of your attempts to change the subject to the Bible only serves to demonstrate the utter absence of truth behind the claims of Islam. Once you open your mind and accept the reality that Islam is not true, I will do all I can to answer your questions and concerns about the Bible and Christianity.

: Mohamed: You are the phoniest Christian I have ever met and I have met a bunch,

: I second that.

: Mohamed: if you do not want to answer my questions than don't because Priests can't answer them either nor your sites which I visited, and obviously neither can you.

: Mike: Mohamed if you do not want to follow the rules of logic then it only shows that your belief is Islam is based on self conscious irrational grounds.

: Mohamed: According to the teachings of the OT, the first half of the Bible, Muslims using the Qur'an, believe that Jesus is sent from God.

: According to the teachings of the OT, Christians using the NT, are worshiping a curse, you ask a curse to clense your sins, you hang a curse around your neck, you attribute a curse as a son of God, and a curse as one third of God, that is according to the NT in relation to the OT which teaches any one who hangs on a tree is a "curse", do you want to worship a curse?

: If not, accept the Truth, Islam is here to remove your curse.

: Mike: Mohamed please understand my culture. In my culture, if you really love someone, you tell them the truth and that is why I will stand firm in obedience to God's will as expressed in historical precedence and the burden of proof as God would have it in Christian-Muslim dialogues.

: Mohamed: You are under the curse, your God is not only false, but also a curse according to the OT, Islam respects Jesus and the OT, you do not want to accept Truth, you are cursed because you follow a cursed God.

: God is not a man, My Allah does not hunger, does not bleed, does not cry to be saved from the cross, your God is false and cursed.

: Believe in the Powerful God, remove the curse from Jesus, accept Islam.

: Mohamed: Answer these tensions/discrepancies..

: Mike: you are changing the subject again. This is logically invalid.

: Mohamed: I have answered your questions, the polite thing to do is take your turn to answer, are you scared, admit that you can not answer the tensions and therefore have no reason what so ever to believe Jesus died on the cross. Why would Jesus beg and scream to be saved if Jesus was God. You have no reason to believe Jesus is your savior, Priests who are brave enough to accept the Truth, convert to Islam.

: Mike: I will not believe your assertions that you have in fact explored the cites I listed until you provide proof like I have when I explored your references. For example, I cut and paste portions of your cite locations and I have directly addressed and even spelled out to you the arguments your reference uses.

: Mohamed: Here is your proof that you and your refrences are phoney;

: http://www.answering-islam.org/Bible/Contra/resurrect.html

: 5. Mary (the mother of James end doses) and Salome saw an angel
: (= "a young man" in Mark) inside the tomb who announced the
: resurrection and directed the women to tell the disciples
: that Jesus would meet them in Galilee (Matt. 28: 5-7;
: Mark 16: 5-7).

: this is contradictory to other Gospel accounts, therefore, the entire event is fake and no one knows what really took place:

: Who was at the tomb when they arrived? Matthew: One angel (28:2-7) Mark: One young man (16:5) Luke: Two men (24:4) John: Two angels (20:12)

: Do you want more to prove you and your sites are fake, I don't give any micro or macro mash potatoes, I give straight facts to prove you have no reason to believe in a false cursed god.

: Believe that Jesus is not cursed and is sent by Allah as a guide and miracle to humanity, not a son, not a god, not a curse, unless you still don't believe.

: Am I still lying as you claim do you want more proof you and your sites are fake?

: Mike: You should not call Jochen Katz a liar.

: Mohamed: If you go through the posts on this site, Christians call Jochen a Liar also, that is the meaning of some one who is a proven deciever, May Allah have mercy on him and you.

: Mike: If you approached this with an open mind you would no longer consider yourself a Muslim. I ask you, what good reasons do you have to continue to believe that Islam is true?

: Mohamed: People like you, non-Christians who don't know anything about Islam or Christianity and biost.

: I second that too.

: Mike: You are not directly answering my point and the reason is that you know now that you have no good reason to continue to believe that Islam is true.

: Mike: I challenge you again to answer the Islamic dilemma: Since Muslim claim that Allah is the same God as the Christian God whose word cannot be corrupted and since the Qur'an and the NT contradict each other on the historical fact of Jesus' crucifixion, Allah contradicts himself. Therefore, Allah cannot be God.

: Mohamed: You are wrong according to your own Logic, the NT contradicts the OT the Qur'an does not contradict the OT, therefore the NT is wrong according to historical facts, you have no reason to worship Jesus, a cursed false god.

: Allah wants us to stay on track the message of Abraham and Moses is contradicted in the NT but not in the Qur'an, therefore the NT is false, according to your logic and and Qur'an is true. YOu are misguided and have no reason to believe in the resurection. Jesus did not die on the cross and you are worshiping a false cursed god.

: Mike: All that this would prove is that God contradicts himself twice: between the OT and the NT and between the NT and the Qur'an.

: Mohamed: Allah does not contradict himself, men do, the OT and the Qur'an agree, because the NT is Mostly words of men who don't want to be circumsized, the NT contradicts the OT and the Qur'an, therefore, "Historically", the Qur'an is True while the NT is false, you have no reason to worship a false cursed god.

: Mike: According to the burden of proof the Qur'an cannot confirm the OT but vice-versa. Also, you have yet to address the macro and micro linkages I noted in a previous post.

: M: The Qur'an is compatible to the OT,

: Mike: you are committing the fallacy carding stacking. You cannot point to those areas where the Qur'an agree while ignoring those area were they contradict. For example Isaac not Ismail was taken to be sacrifice. Noah's son did not stay behind and drown in the flood etc. See: http://answering-islam.org.uk/Quran/Contra/#bible

: Mohamed: Those additional lies only reveals more human tampering for example it was Ishmael who was to be sacraficed, not Isaac: http://debate.org.uk/weboard/debate/messages/1084.html

: You and your refrences are phoney, fake Christians, using lies to support your cursed god worshiping.

: Dear brother Mike, do you see the above, to tell me I have no reason to believe is not aplicable to me and is fully compatible to your worshiping a man/creation.

: Pardon my tone, I guess what comes around goes around :-)

: Now I will show you even more proof that your references are fake and the Qur'an is the word of Allah, the one and only Creator:

: In responce to: :http://www.answering-islam.org/Science/embryo.html

: The actual word in question "Alaq" has a dual meaning in Arabic. Depending on the context it can either mean "clump of blood" or "leech." This can be seen for example in the Arabic-English Dictionary "A Dictionary of Modern Written Arabic" By J. Milton Cowan. On page 634, this word is
: translated into English as "medicinal leech; leech, blood, blood clot." To find a much more comprehensive and authoritative study of this word we need to go to the 18 volume encyclopedia of Arabic language, Lisan Al-Arab. In volume 10, pages 261-270 we can find a detailed
: treatment of this word, its root, its derivations, its usage, its various permutations, and their meanings. In these ten pages we are presented with roughly 160 different permutations of this word. Each differing only very slightly from the others in written or pronounced form, and with all of them being united by the common theme of different ways of "clinging or hanging"

: Therefore, the original Arabic text is not in contradiction to science, it is actually another miracle because over 1,400 years ago, they did not have microscopes to know that embyos are a leech like oraganism.

: This further proves your sites lack of knowledge on Arabic and false claims and leaves you to answer alot of my concerns about Christianity.

: You have been answered, micro, macro, mickey mouse and all, now the burden is on you, you have no reason to worship a man, a cursed man according to the OT. If you do not answer my concerns in your next reply, you will show me that you are scared and have no answer, therefore showing me that you do not have a spec of dust of a reason to be a Christian.

: Peace and Blessings,
: Your Brother in Islam: Mohamed.

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