Re: Has Allah Removed the Curse of Babylon

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Subject  : Re: Re: Has Allah Removed the Curse of Babylon

Comments:
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: : Dear brother Zaphod,
: : thank you for your response,
: : I would just like to comment on a few of your previous posts including this one;

: : {It seems to me from the above that when all the people had one language this was in fact part of the problem and the reason why God did what he did.}

: : Yes, the people were able to do anything with one language, and instead of useing it for righteousness, and worship, they used it to rebel against God. Then the curse took place.

: Zaphod - One minute you are agreeing that one language is dangerous and the next you are not, conveniently adding the word righteousness.

: : {Christians see Jesus as the means for Salvation}

: : Does this mean your preception of Jesus is not consistant with and within the Bible; "To him who loves us and has freed us from our sins...," Rev.1:5
:  
: Zaphod - No

: : What of the sin of Babylon that Christians are still not free from while Muslims world wide believe in Jesus and are free form the sin of Babylon.

: Zaphod - See above

: : {On the contrary - God is forgiving by giving us different languages so we do not become like the Babylonians.}

: : Babylon;Babel is the Hebrew word for confused.  By confusing the language, the non-Muslims on a world scale "are" Babylonians.

: Zaphod - The origin of the word was not in dispute.

: : {There is nothing to keep us from understanding our companions at all. Language is a barrier that can be overcome.}

: : Wow, I did not know that you speak over 300 languages, impresive.

: Zaphod - Where did I say I could speak over 300 languages?  

: : {For you maybe, but for me following the Koran led me to the Bible.}

: : I would believe you if it wasn't for the fact that in your previous posts you've shown me that you've probably never opened the Koran, for example, You wrote; {"Only Muslims go to heaven", another ridiculous claim since the Koran itself (2.63) does not say this. Now who is it that does not know Islam!}

: Zaphod - Yes, (although you continually refuse to believe it)  I have read the Koran many times.  I was taught by Muslim teachers  that only Muslims go to heaven, perhaps it is they that do not know Islam! Perhaps they got it from this verse;

: Prosperous are the believers who in their prayers are humble, and who from vain talk turn aside, and who in almsgiving are active. And who guard their private parts-except for their wives or what their right hands possess for then, verily, they are not to be blamed;-but whoso craves aught beyond that, they are the transgressors-and who observe their trusts and covenants, and who guard well their prayers: these are the heirs who shall inherit Paradise; they shall dwell therein for aye!

: Since the believers are the ones who believe the Koran - is it not true then that as a Christian and not  a believer of the Koran I cannot enter paradise? Or is it referring to believers otherwise?

: : I  looked up this verse and it does not say anything about Christians or Heaven.

: : "And remember We took your covenant and We raised above you (The towering height) of Mount (Sinai) : (Saying): "Hold firmly to what We have given you and bring (ever) to remembrance what is therein: Perchance ye may fear Allah." {Koran 2:63}

: Zaphod - See above

: : You're posts are further revealing of your false claims but that is your choice to do so.  If you are with the Bible maybe you'll no longer tell lies.

: Zaphod - I think it is more that you do not like the fact that a one time Muslim is revealing unfavourable things towards Islam.  They are only lies as you perceive them, because you are not in agreement.

: : You certainly though have not read the Koran as you also say in previous posts that we follow the teachings of a dead Arab and then ask why don't we follow the teachings of Jesus, (who is also an Arab I may add).  Teachings of the Koran in just the 2nd chapter would show you that Jesus is a part of Islam, a previous teacher who gave humanity a partial message of Islam and it was completed with the Prophet Muhammad.

: Zaphod - Why is it you can never seem to give a direct answer?  I will pose the question again.  Where are the original teachings of Jesus as referred to in the Koran?  You still did not answer my question in the previous post.  Do Arabs speak the same everyday language of the Koran today as when it was written?  Jesus did not give a partial message as you say, according to Islam he gave an entirely wrong message!  Any Muslim will tell you the Gospels are corrupt, the same corrupt gospels referred to in the Koran centuries later.

: : "I have much more to say to you, more than you can now bear. But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come." John 16:12-13

: Zaphod - Is this something you believe? Or are you now saying that John 16:12 is some Islamic message.  This verse is in reference to the Holy Spirit coming and  it did (see Acts 2), well before Muhammad.

: : Maybe this was the fact that they could not bear and were very violent towards people like Galileo who claimed the earth is not the center of the universe and Prophet Muhammad (he) told them of things to come such as future scientific discoveries and details of Jesus's return and much more.

: Zaphod - details of Jesus's return were told before the Koran .  I have read the claims to the Koran revealing scientific discoveries and am satisfied myself that there are without credibility.  You should be careful here (re scientific discoveries) because it is not a universal Muslim belief either.

: : {Just where you draw these conclusions beats me! How is it that ENGLISH is a monetary language? How did you relate Proverbs 28:22 to English?}

: : my reference to English as a monitary language is not based on scripture, it is present day reality, there was no Engish the time of Jesus, English today is more a symbol of money (i.e. "dollar, American Dream, piece of the pie, etc..") than of religion. This century, English dominated countries are the financial leaders,  this is to say that where there is money, there is greed, and the "majority" speak English, not the sematic language prescibed to us by our Creator.

: Zaphod - I assumed that you were using scripture to support you claim since you are always asking me to produce scripture, in support of my own opinions.  I think if you delve into your statistical books you will find that the majority of people do not speak English as a first language, this is not the same as English being accepted as  the international language.

: : {Muslim countries that manufacture acohol, this then according to you, means these people are not Muslims,} 

: : There is an alcohol company in Egypt that was going broke until recently some Western countries invested money in it to support and advertise it nation wide.  Travel, see how Western companies are world wide, because of cheaper labour and less strict pollution laws.  Non the less, if you do not follow the teachings, you are not Muslim.

: Zaphod - I am in fact well travelled.  It is true that Western companies are all over the world, but I fail to see why you use that to demonstrate the affect on  the religious belief of Islam.  You in fact, used statistics to demostrate how Islam is growing.  Was the Egyptian Alcohol company forced to accept the investment?  Does not the Islamic law forbid alcohol?  Can you build a Church in Saudi Arabia?  Don't you have to be a Muslim to go to Mecca (not just for the hadj).  These are are rules made to preserve Islamic law, the same law could be applied to prevent  the manufacture of acohol.  Why isn't it - because it is profitable - so who is being greedy here?  There is greed everywhere - Christians are no exception, but it is not exclusive.

: : Prehaps many in power in the capitalistic West are anti-Islam because of it's piety teachings, more closer to the teachings of Jesus that status symbols are tools of the Devil, etc..

: Zaphod - There you go again with the 'closer to the teachings of Jesus' thing, where are the Islamic teachings of Jesus?  I do not disagree that materialistic things are much less important than our relationship with God, but they are there and can be put to good use as well as bad.  You can use the tools of the devil to work it against him too!  

: : {I renounce Islam as the religion of Satan (which is not the same as saying you worship the Devil) because it draws you away from Christ, which is Satans work.}

: : I kindly asked you to give me verses and you just give more slander, where in the Islamic teachings are we told to be drawn away from Jesus, esspecially since we believe he will come back for us, again, kindly support your claims.

: Zaphod - All the verses you need are contained in the Bible from Genesis to revelations.  You discount them because they have been superseded (as you believe) by the Koran.  By default you are drawn away from Christ and the Holy Spirit and ultimately God.  By the way - I was taught by my Islamic teachers that Jesus is coming accompanied by  Muhammad.  Is that incorrect?

: : {There is no forgiveness in Islam only punishment.}

: : Really? wow, can you show me this in context.

: : {The law still applies today, but it is conveniently not used much as that is one of the 'not so nice things' about Islam. I forget the exact Hadith that reports it, but I think it is Bukhari Vol 5}.

: : Volume 1, Book 4, Number 234:, you will see here that these criminal stold and murdered, their punishemt was less sevear than the punishment of death administered commonly in the U.S.  Laws are laws, you can label Islam with bad and look away at non-Muslims doing bad, this again is your free choice, I have done my part and attempted to clear up your misconceptions, if you continue on your path, continue having been warned.

: Zaphod - Check out Mishkat-ul-Masabih, Book II, Section 11, 1210-Theft, Hadith No. 127. Ibn Majah narrated like it from Abdulla-b-Sufwan and Darimi from Ibn 'Abbas.   You conveniently forget the US (why you quote the US only I don't know) has a justice system based on a constitution.  Sharia law is based on 1400 year old  Islam.  Two very different systems.  Any misconceptions you claim I have were generated from Islamic teachers - Who are you warning?

: : {Yes you (and others) are strengthening my faith, but in the Christian sense, which I know is not agreeable to you.  Many of your posts force me to read the Bible more at which point my emotions are calmed, by the holy spirit.}

: : Thank you again, I take it then that you will be followning the Bible next time you write "The man who says, "I know him," but does not do what he commands is a liar, and the truth is not in him."1 John 2:4 Do as Jesus wants, submit to God (Islam)

: Zaphod - The verse is intended for all, and yes I will be following  the Bible to the best of my ability.  You are telling me to believe it which I already do, yet you do not believe it yourself.  You add the word Islam which is what I think you would like it to say, but sorry, it doesn't. Should you not be convincing me where my Koranic interpretations are wrong.  If you are continually going to resort to calling me a liar which is inferred in the above,  then there is not much point in pursuing the debate.  You end your post with Peace and Blessings yet, one way to destroy peace is to call the other a liar.   Do you really want peace?  Perhaps my tone is one of anger,  like I have freely admitted beforehand.  I also explained that I am angered by your unceasing attacks on Christianity in pursuit of Christians to believe the Koran.  I am obstructive in your cause and you do not like it.  My friend, I will defend my faith, whether you resort to name calling or not!

: 
: Zaphod