Re: Has Allah Removed the Curse of Babylon

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Subject  : Re: Re: Has Allah Removed the Curse of Babylon

Comments:
: : Dear Brother Zaphod,
: : Thank you for your response,
: : I do agree with what you say, that we should answer each others questions before further discusions.

: : I will answer your questions and then if you can do me the favor to answer mine before responding, agreed?

: : {One minute you are agreeing that one language is dangerous and the next you are not, conveniently adding the word
: : righteousness.}

: : It is dangerous when it is used towards rebelling.  Allah saw to it to confuse the Babylonian's language who were not obeying the commandments of Allah.

: Zaphod - I do not see any connection with Islam here.  You previously stated somthing along the lines of the pure language of Arabic that we should all return to (Sorry I do not save all the posts).  My line of argument is that if it was undesireable to speak one language why would God/Allah wish us to return to it.  I do not see it as a curse as such, only a part of Gods plan to correct the Babylonians at the time.

: : The curse is removed for those who return to the straight path (Islam)

: Zaphod - Is the curse removal specifically referred to in the Koran?
: :  
: : : {Christians see Jesus as the means for Salvation}

: : : Does this mean your preception of Jesus is not consistant with and within the Bible; "To him who loves us and has freed us
: : from our sins...," Rev.1:5

: : {Zaphod - No}

: : *Are you saying Jesus did not die for the sins of humans, are you disagreeing with the Bible and agreeing with the Koran that says Jesus was saved and we are responsible for our own sins?

: Zaphod - Salvation = "The act of saving or protecting from harm, risk loss, destruction, etc."  Jesus is the MEANS for which we can be saved.  You and I and everyone on this earth have, and will continue to sin, that is our nature.  Jesus Christ is THE salvation.  That is not to say that we can go on sinning without control, that is why we believe the holy spirit is needed to guide our conscience, we have a duty to follow the example of Christ.  Christians are not perfect - just saved.

: : : What of the sin of Babylon that Christians are still not free from while Muslims world wide believe in Jesus and are free form the sin of Babylon.

: Zaphod - Metaphorically, the slate was wiped clean with the death and resurrection of Christ.  So the answer to your question is yes, but I thought I had made that obvious with the Salvation statement.

: : This is another answered question, you said {see above} as an answer, that is not answering the question, telling me 'no' does not answer the question of *where is the freedom for the Christians from the curse of Babylon? 

: : : {There is nothing to keep us from understanding our companions at all.}

: : : Wow, I did not know that you speak over 300 languages, impresive.

: : {Where did I say I could speak over 300 languages? }

: : Just above you said there is 'nothing' to keep you from understanding others.

: Zaphod - You see, you have read something that is not there.  I said there is nothing to keep us from understanding our companions.  As a world wide population we have the means to learn other languages to communicate and even if we have a learning disability we can still understand foreign toungues through interpreters.  That is what I meant by that statement.  I never made reference to myself being able to speak over 300 languages.  I once took a flight to a remote area of central America where neither I or the people I was instructing (on how to load the plane)  knew each others language.  We communicated with sign language and by demonstration, this is a small example of communication without the use of the spoken  language.  

: : {Since the believers are the ones who believe the Koran - is it not true then that as a Christian and not a believer of the Koran I cannot enter paradise? Or is it referring to believers otherwise?}

: : I will not deny that you have to believe in Muhammad as a prophet of God which after all these centuries I think it is obvious by now. Those who believe in one God without partners, Allah is forgiving, and guides to Truth.

: Zaphod - This then is telling me that unless I believe in Muhammad as a prophet and I guess that would mean a Muslim right?  I cannot get into heaven or paradise.  So, to get to heaven you have to be a Muslim right?

: : {Why is it you can never seem to give a direct answer? I will pose the question again. Where are the original teachings of Jesus as referred to in the Koran?}

: : http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Acropolis/6808/Jesus.html

: Zaphod - I have not visited this site, and it not necessary to.  Further down in this post you say there is NO gospel of Christ.  Since it is essential to Christianity that the TEACHINGS of christ are contained in the Gospels we have come full circle.

: : {You still did not answer my question in the previous post. Do Arabs speak the same everyday language of the Koran today as when it was written?}

: : Arabs make up 27% of the Muslims, your question is irelevent, the answer is some, it depends on which Arab country, slang is used as in any language in everyday talk or doth thou disagreath. :-)

: Zaphod - I believe it is completely relevant, since it is you who are claiming that we should all speak the pure Arabic language of the Koran.  I am asking you why Muslims thoughout the world and even Arabs do not use it in everyday language, not just in prayer.  Doth though disagreath       ( and I am not sure that is correct old English) is today said as "Do you disagree?"  This is because the language has evolved,  I am not saying we should all speak old English which seems to be your inference.  Your claim as I remember it, was that Muslims already did speak a pure language, and comparing it to the Babylonians one language.

: : {Jesus did not give a partial message as you say,} 

: : I didn't say it, Jesus did in the Bible  John 16:12-13

: Zaphod - The verse is in reference to the coming of the holy spirit to continue Christ to be with us, this was fulfilled.

: : {according to Islam he gave an entirely wrong message!}

: : *Here is another question for you to answer, where in Islamic teaching does it say that Jesus gave the wrong message. Jesus was given the Gospel from Allah and then scribes after Jesus's life time curropted his message.

: Zaphod -  Islam teaches that Jesus was no more than a prophet and not a our salvation.  That my friend, is the wrong message.  The corruption you speak of is only because the Koran is not in agreement with Christian doctrine.  You believe the Koran is perfect and a guarantee from God, when in fact the same guarantee was given of the Bible centuries before it.  There in my opinion, is more evidence to suggest that Muhammad was a false prophet as warned of in the Bible.   Where is the proof that the scribes corrupted the word.  The only way this could be done is if you have the 'original' (given by Allah)  to prove it was changed.  The Koran cannot be a  basis for this.  

: : {Any Muslim will tell you the Gospels are corrupt}

: : Christians too  http://wings.buffalo.edu/sa/muslim/library/jesus-say/ch2.1.html

: Zaphod - Don't you see the irony of this?  Any Christian who tells you the Gospels are corrupt cannot be 'by definition'  a Christian!  Do you believe everything you read has credibility on the net?

: : {the same corrupt gospels referred to in the Koran centuries later.}

: : *Where does it say Allah gave Jesus a curropted Gospel.  The point is that there is "no" Gospel of Jesus, it is lost, now God gave us the Koran to stay on track. 

: : {This verse is in reference to the Holy Spirit coming and it did (see Acts 2), well before Muhammad.}

: : John 14: 16,26,30. The word paraclete in Greek and in Hebrew (Praised One, Ahmad/Muhammad) 

: Zaphod - If you ask me what 5 + 5 is, the answer will be 10.  If you ask me the same question tomorrow the answer will still be 10.  The operative words in the my quote are DID and BEFORE.  The Holy spirit was foretold and fulfilled.  If it was meant to say Muhammad it would have said Muhammad.  A comforter is not the same as a prophet a prophet prophesies, a comforter comforts.

: : {Was the Egyptian Alcohol company forced to accept the investment? Does not the Islamic law forbid alcohol?}

: : Egypt is currently run under French law.  You've traveled?

: Zaphod - “Egypt is governed by a constitution promulgated on September 11, 1971. The constitution provides for an Arab socialist state with Islam as the official religion. It also stresses social solidarity, equal opportunity, and popular control of the means of production”.  “Islam is the official religion, and about 94% of all Egyptians are Sunnite Muslims”  “Judicial authority in Egypt is vested in an independent judicial system, which is based on elements of Islamic, English, and French laws. Egypt is a republic and therefore if it chooses to govern itself with elements of French law, then so be it.  It begs the question; Why does a country with 94% Muslim population choose to only partially use Islamic law? 

: I said I was well travelled (in response to a statement originating from you), but you seem to (somewhat sarcastically) disbelieve that, based on that I did not state Egypt was under (elements of) French law!  If you like I will send you a list of the countries I have lived in/visited, but what will that achieve?  Egypt would not be on my list of countries visited, but that cannot possibly be a basis for questioning my “well travelled” statement.  If I had said I have been to every country in the world then maybe you would have a case!  There were several questions posed in the same paragraph, generalising on Islamic Law, none of which you have answered yet.  Are you saying that in Egypt (of which the majority are Muslims) alcohol is permitted?  Is that the part of the Islamic Law that is not adopted?

: : {There you go again with the 'closer to the teachings of Jesus' thing, where are the Islamic teachings of Jesus?}

: : They are through out the Bible, there was a site on Jesus preaching Islam in the Bible, I can't find it right now but here is an example (Matthew 12:50) 

: Zaphod - The chapter is in reference to Jesus healing on the Sabbath and angering the Pharisees.  Sorry, didn’t see any reference or allusion to Islam here

: : : {I renounce Islam as the religion of Satan (which is not the same as saying you worship the Devil) because it draws you away from Christ, which is Satans work.}

: : : I kindly asked you to give me verses and you just give more slander, where in the Islamic teachings are we told to be drawn
: : away from Jesus, esspecially since we believe he will come back for us, again, kindly support your claims.

: Zaphod - Already did.  If you want specifics then I would choose this one;
: “He is but a servant whom we have been gracious to, and we have made him an example for the children of Israel”.  The key words being ‘But a servant’ not a saviour, not salvation.

: : {Zaphod - All the verses you need are contained in the Bible from Genesis to revelations. You discount them because they have been superseded (as you believe) by the Koran. By default you are drawn away from Christ and the Holy Spirit and ultimately God.}

: : *A question to answer as I ask you kindly "again", where in Islamic teachings does it say that we are not to believe in Jesus, or to worship satan, you've made this claim quite a few time and if we are to intellegently discuss this topic, then kindly provide me with "correct" verses before replying, thank you.

: Zaphod - I did not say in the above that Islam teaches you not to believe Jesus existed, I said it draws you away from Christ and you discount the teachings of Jesus, because Muhammad superseded him.  There is a subtle but important difference in believing Jesus existed (or is returning) and believing IN Jesus.  I also said that Islam is the Religion of Satan which (I say again) is not the same as Devil worship.  If you want to start a game of supplying verses for every opinion or action, I am not up for it,since it will be pointless.  I could pose dozens of questions asking you to show me verses to support various Muslim traditions, opinions and cultural practices that have worked their way into Islam for which I already know there are none, so let’s not go there.

: : {By the way - I was taught by my Islamic teachers that Jesus is coming accompanied by Muhammad. Is that incorrect?}

: : I do not claim to be a scolar and it is best to refer to material from a Mosque not the 'net' to obtain info, I was under the impresion that Jesus will come solo to defeat the ant-Christ etc..

: Zaphod - This then is another topic of discussion which I intend to post along with other questions to verify what I have been taught.

: : : {There is no forgiveness in Islam only punishment.}

: : : Really? wow, can you show me this in context.

: : *Where is the answer?, here is a hint: http://www.flash.net/~royal/love.html

: Zaphod - Don’t believe everthing on the net, please explain the reference I gave you, instead or drawing me into another one.

: : {Sharia law is based on 1400 year old Islam. Two very different systems.}

: : That is the beauty of Islam, one book that is the only book in the world that is the law in over 45 countries.

: Zaphod - Please enlighten me, that of the 45 countries that have adopted the ‘one book’ as you say, operate to it 100%

: : {You are telling me to believe it which I already do, yet you do not believe it yourself.}

: : I brother Zaphod did not say to believe in it, I said if your going to follow it than atleast do what it says, such as following the commandments of Allah.

: Zaphod - I think this is a case of word semantics.  In my opinion you have just describe belief, from belief comes following.

: : {I also explained that I am angered by your unceasing attacks on Christianity in pursuit of Christians to believe the Koran. I am obstructive in your cause and you do not like it.}

: : 1. I publicly apologize if my (and other's) research and findings, and questions seem like attacks, I honestly try not to upset anyone, I would like to call it "clearing miscoceptions" and not attacking.
: : 2. The devil himself can not obstruct Islam from spreading.
: : 3. I have marked questions for you to answer with a (*), If you may please answer these before responding.

: : {My friend, I will defend my faith, whether you resort to name calling or not!}

: : That is very funny, I do not mean you are a liar on a personel level, I just ask you to provide truth, in the above posts you've called Islam the satan's religion, if you want to verify your claims (with proper verse #'s) than show the proof otherwise your claims are false, I apologize for being blunt and calling you a liar and a fake in the past, I will give you the opportunity to answer the above questions before I come to any conclusions.

: Zaphod - Can you prove the Koran is the truth on verses alone? Answer - no, you have to have faith in it too.  That is what this is all about isn’t it?  I believe Islam is the religion of Satan based on my faith in Christ and my own experiences of Islam not verses alone.  You may draw any conclusion you wish, but I do not answer to you, so while you read my post and make your own judgement, you can only come to one conclusion!  This subject has somewhat drifted from the original post  and I would suggest that the arguments are continued as separate subjects.   I intend to post some questions of which you will have the opportunity to answer.  Finally, I have noted a trend whereby I am not the only one repeating myself to you and your wilyness to avoid the actual issues.  Please read your own post responses and see if you can see what I mean.  I wish I could spend more time at this website, but I am restricted by my job which involves a great deal of travel to other countries!

: Zaphod