Posted by Malakh on February 18, 1998 at 01:48:39:
>1. It is written in the "Bible" that Hagar is Abraham's wife, according to Christianity,
>that would fit as a Holy maratal contract.
>2. You seem to know more about Islam than Christianity, fore in Christianity, the number of
>Allowed wives is Not Limmited (i.e. King Solomon, etc..) and the
>Qur'an is the only revelation that limits the number of wives to 4 and specifically says that
>Allah prefers you only have 1 wife.
Never mind the fact that Mohamed had 16 of 'em ;-)I am sure he rewrote the Quran after he married number
16 and realized the error of his ways ;-))
Deuteronomy 17:17
Neither shall he multiply wives to himself, that his heart turn not away: neither shall he greatly
multiply to himself silver and gold.
Monogamy was the original law under which man lived, but polygamy early commenced (Gen. 4:19),
and continued to prevail all down through Jewish history. The law of Moses regulated but did
not prohibit polygamy.
Under the patriarchs, the property of a father was divided among the sons of
his legitimate wives (Gen. 21:10; 24:36; 25:5).
God commanded Abraham to offer his only son for a burnt offering upon a particular mountain
in the land of Moriah. In Heb. 11:17 we are told that Isaac was
Abraham's "only begotten son." Abraham had another son, Ishmael (who dwelt in the
wilderness of Paran at this time), but Isaac alone was the "only
begotten son." Isaac alone was born after the Spirit in a supernatural manner,(God-willed) and, thus, was the
only son recognized by God as fit for the sacrifice.
God's Son, 2,000 years later, was offered upon a particular mountain in the land of Moriah. He was
God's "only begotten Son" (John 3:16). God had other sons (angels, Adam, and Israel are called "sons of God"
because of special, creative acts), but Jesus alone, as Isaac, was the "only begotten Son." Angels
could not fulfill the requirement for substitutionary atonement (Rom. 5:17-19). Nor could Adam or
his descendants fulfill this requirement, for "by one man sin
entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that
all have sinned" (Rom. 5:12).
This is explained best by:
Galatians 4:21 - Galations 5:1
22 For it is written that Abraham had two sons, one by a slave and one by a free woman.
23 But the son of the slave was born according to the flesh, the son of the free woman
through promise.
24 Now this is an allegory: these women are two covenants. One is from Mount Sinai,
bearing children for slavery; she is Hagar.
25 Now Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia; she corresponds to the present Jerusalem, for
she is in slavery with her children.
26 But the Jerusalem above is free, and she is our mother.
27 For it is written, "Rejoice, O barren one who does not bear; break forth and shout,
you who are not in travail; for the children of the desolate one are many more than the
children of her that is married."
28 Now we, brethren, like Isaac, are children of promise.
29 But as at that time he who was born according to the flesh persecuted him
who was born according to the Spirit, so it is now.
30 But what does the scripture say? "Cast out the slave and her son; for the son of
the slave shall not inherit with the son of the free woman."
31 So, brethren, we are not children of the slave but of the free woman.
1 For freedom Christ has set us free; stand fast therefore, and do not submit again to a
yoke of slavery.
As everyone who gets impatient with God is still wont
to do, Abraham and Sarah decided to take matters into their own hands, to sort of "help
God out," since he was being so slow about keeping his promise. It's funny, thousands of
years ago even people of faith were the same as they are today - impatient, wanting things
on our schedule instead of God's.
I stand by the fact that Sarai gave Abraham her slave, Hagar, to give him a son and
then, when Hagar started trying to act like a free woman, rather than the maidservant she
was:
Gen 16:6-12
6 But Abram said to Sar'ai, "Behold, your maid is in your power; do to her as you please." Then Sar'ai dealt
harshly with her, and she fled from her.
7 The angel of the LORD found her by a spring of water in the wilderness, the spring on the way to Shur.
8 And he said, "Hagar, maid of Sar'ai, where have you come from and where are you going?" She said, "I am fleeing
from my mistress Sar'ai." note the relevant pecking order here?
9 The angel of the LORD said to her, "Return to your mistress, and submit to her."
10 The angel of the LORD also said to her, "I will so greatly multiply your descendants that they cannot be numbered
for multitude."
11 And the angel of the LORD said to her, "Behold, you are with child, and shall bear a son; you shall call his name
Ish'mael; because the LORD has given heed to your affliction.
12 He shall be a wild ass of a man, his hand against every man and every man's hand against him; and he shall dwell
over against all his kinsmen."
read that as he will persecute and pick on every one around him, including his baby brother Isaac
and Ishmael, about 13 yrs old started acting proud
and teasing his baby brother Isaac,
Gen 21:9-12
8 And the lad groweth, and is weaned, and Abraham maketh a great banquet in the day of Isaac's being weaned;
9 and Sarah seeth the son of Hagar the Egyptian, whom she hath borne to Abraham, mocking,
10 and she saith to Abraham, `Cast out this handmaid and her son; for the son of this handmaid hath no possession
with my son -- with Isaac.'
11 And the thing is very wrong in the eyes of Abraham, for his son's sake;
12 and God saith unto Abraham, `Let it not be wrong in thine eyes because of the youth, and because of thy handmaid:
all that Sarah saith unto thee -- hearken to her voice, for in Isaac is a seed called to thee.
Sarah decided that she had better 'get rid' of Hagar.
Abraham was told by God to
do as Sarah said, Ishmael would be taken care of by God as well, but Isaac was the
child that was going to fulfill God's Will.
The fact remains that Ishamel was not considered to be a son on equal footing as Isaac.
Now, moving onwards, Ive gone thru the Quran over and over in search of clues as to how
you came about your conclusions of Ishmael, and all I can find on Ishmael are just mere
references to him:
1.al-Baqarah 2:125.35 isma'il
2. al-Baqarah 2:127.5 isma'il
3. al-Baqarah 2:133.36 isma'il
4. al-Baqarah 2:136.16 isma'il
5. al-Baqarah 2:140.7 isma'il
6. Al-Imran 3:84.20 isma'il
7. an-Nisa' 4:163.22 isma'il
8. al-An`am 6:86.2 isma'il
9. Ibrahim 14:39.13 isma'il
10. Maryam 19:54.9 isma'il
11. al-Anbiya' 21:85.3 isma'il
12. Sad 38:48.3 isma'il
The most illuminating references to Isaac (in my opinion) are the following: (there are others, but they were
just references to Isaac's name)
[Hud 11:71.17] And his wife was standing (there), and she laughed: But we gave her glad tidings
of Isaac, and after him, of Jacob.
[Yusuf 12:6.38] "Thus will thy Lord choose thee and teach thee the interpretation of stories (and events)
and perfect His favour to thee and to the posterity of Jacob - even as He perfected it to thy
fathers Abraham and Isaac aforetime! for God is full of knowledge and wisdom."
[Yusuf 12:38.10] "And I follow the ways of my fathers,- Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob; and never could
we attribute any partners whatever to God: that (comes) of the grace of God to us and to mankind:
yet most men are not grateful.
So, Mohamed, if this Isaac thing is such a sticking point for you and you believe the Quran to be the inspired
word of God, can you please share, from the Quran, on what you base your opinion when you stated the following:
>The question is who was sacraficed, who was Abrahams "only begotten son" when Abraham was 99?
Nobody was sacrificed when Abrahm was 99 yrs old:
Genesis 17:17-21
17 Then Abraham fell on his face and laughed, and said to himself, "Shall a child be born to a man who is a hundred
years old? Shall Sarah,who is ninety years old, bear a child?"
18 And Abraham said to God, "O that Ish'mael might live in thy sight!"
19 God said, "No, but Sarah your wife shall bear you a son, and you shall call his name Isaac. I will establish my
covenant with him as an everlasting covenant for his descendants after him.
20 As for Ish'mael, I have heard you; behold, I will bless him and make him fruitful and multiply him exceedingly;
he shall be the father of twelve princes, and I will make him a great nation.
21 But I will establish my covenant with Isaac, whom Sarah shall bear to you at this season next year."
>If the answer is Ishmael as we both know it, does that not take away from the Jews ego which gives them motive to
>change Ishmael into Isaac? Which in consiquence changes some of the prophcies which inreturn changes the message?
Correction, you have assumed it was Ishmael but no where in either the Quran nor the Bible does it state that - the
bible is quite clear in saying that it is Isaac that the Lord had chosen, from the very beginning to "establish His covenant with him
as an everlasting covenant for his descendants after him. "
The web pages listed below have some interesting information about Isaac, Ishmael and the Quran:
The Claim that Ishmael was the Sacrifice
References for the differing Muslim traditions
(note: I never advocate the use of a web page as a definitive answer to any question)