Posted by Malakh on February 18, 1998 at 23:06:39:
In Reply to: Re: Isaac and Ishmael (continued from in response to Jochen thread) posted by Mohamed Ghounem on February 18, 1998 at 22:07:14:
>I have shown you mathmatically that Ishmael was the son of Abraham who was to be sacraficed
You have shown nothing mathematically in the following post to prove anything...
http://debate.org.uk/weboard/debate/messages/991.html
Care to point out where in this post you use anything to prove anything?
>I have shown you morally that Ishmael is a valid son and therefore Isaac was "not" the
>only begotten son, Ishmael was at the time of the sacrafice:
>http://debate.org.uk/weboard/debate/messages/1052.htm
I concede that genetically Ishmael was Abrahams son, I do not agree with your definition
of 'moral' son though. Abraham fathered a child but Hagar and the teenager were cast
out of the house - and Sarah says it succinctly when she says:
Gen 21:10 and she saith to Abraham, `Cast out this handmaid and her son; for the son of this handmaid
hath no possession with my son -- with Isaac.'
Isaac was the son born to Abraham and Sarah
Ishmael fulfilled a different set of Gods purposes. Sarah was still
the free woman and Hagar her slave.....regardless of who Hagar slept with.
God commanded Abraham to offer his only son for a burnt offering upon a particular mountain
in the land of Moriah. In Heb. 11:17 we are told that Isaac was
Abraham's "only begotten son." Abraham had another son, Ishmael (who dwelt in the
wilderness of Paran at this time), but Isaac alone was the "only
begotten son." Isaac alone was born after the Spirit in a supernatural manner,(God-willed) and, thus,
was the only son recognized by God as fit for the sacrifice.
>You are contradicting even your own posts, first you claimed that Ishmael was no longer
>a son at all, now you are saying that Ishmael was less of a son.
I apparently am not conveying myself in a way that is simple enough for you to understand.
Ive said I agree that Ishmael was born of Abraham from the
start, I do disagree with you on trying to put todays standards on matters of legitimacy.
>You have crossed the boundries of a logical discussion, "compareing Jesus to Isaac"? kindly
>stay within the factual & logical historical facts.
You mean only allow you and your 'holy' book to speak and let everyone else listen? I am glad
we get to discuss this stuff as through your condescending attitude and arrogance, I find myself
becoming a much stronger Christian through it all.
Oh yeah, and that reminds me...I notice youve failed yet again to even attempt to answer any of my
questions - is it just too difficult for you to find the words here or can you not come upwith
any concrete documented logical or historical facts, outside of your own Quran?
> am looking discuss the teachings of true teachers, Paul is a false teacher.
That is akin to me telling you that Mohummed is a false prophet. Care to throw more stones?
It appears to me that when someone backs you and your faith into a corner, you come out, not with
logic and factual intelligence, not with humility, but with attacks on the person.
Whether that is a difference in our cultures or not is irrelevant.
By the way, I am not from the MidWest USA, so there you go, proven wrong again, werent you?
I dont even live in the USA...so not only were you not in the right ballpark, you werent even in the
right country....shows you just how wrong you can be, huh? Perhaps you need to reexamine your faith
as well, as it could be way out of bounds as well. Youve also demonstrated yourself to be too proud
to admit when youve either misunderstood something, didnt know the answer to something or were just
out and out wrong. Youre out and out wrong on this one, bro, admit it ;-)
You have your rights to your opinion, as for me, Im serving the Lord God Almighty and follow
the teachings of Jesus Christ as recorded through the Holy Spirit via the Gospels. You have yet to
even attempt to explain why you think the Injeel is the 'correct' version of the gospels. The
archeological discoveries have proven to me beyond a reasonable doubt that the Bible is the inspired
Word of God, that Jesus Christ was crucified, died and rose again according to the scriptures.
If you dont want to even attempt to show me the evidences you have to prove the Quran is the Word of
God as written down by Mohummed, burned by Uthman and rewritten according to an old mans memory and a
few of his buddies, well then I guess we have nothing left to discuss on this matter.
Matthew 10:14
If anyone will not welcome you or listen to your words, shake the dust off your feet when you leave
that home or town.
Mark 6:11
And if any place will not welcome you or listen to you, shake the dust off your feet when you leave,
as a testimony against them."
Luke 9:5
If people do not welcome you, shake the dust off your feet when you leave their town, as a testimony
against them."
Luke 10:11
`Even the dust of your town that sticks to our feet we wipe off against you. Yet be sure of this: The
kingdom of God is near.'