Posted by Jochen Katz on December 30, 1997 at 20:53:38:
In Reply to: Re: Contradictions in the Qur'an? posted by Mohamed Ghounem on December 26, 1997 at 04:30:18:
Thank you for your respose.
: {Maybe you can explain to me in particular what you think of
: the relative distance of moon and stars. Nobody has made an attempt to answer this one yet.}
: Your concern is:
: "Do you not see how God has created the seven heavens one above the other,
: and made the moon a light in their midst, and made the sun as a lamp?" Sura 71:15-16
: Then You Claim there is a contradiction by stating;
: {What is wrong for sure, is the Qur'anic claim that the stars are in a lower or
: even lowest heaven, while the moon is in a middle heaven.}
: You claim the word "midst" as Yusuf Ali translates means "middle"
Not as you were reading it. I said _a_ middle heaven, not THE middle one.
The Qur'an speaks of seven heavens, so _a_ middle one would be somewhere
in 2nd to 6th in my language.
: This claim is not valid in the English or the Arabic meaning of the word.
: Let us start with the English Webster Dictionary to show you the difference
: between "Midst" and "Middle"
: Midst: "The position of anything surrounded by "or" amoung other things."
: Middle: "Equally distant from the extremes."
This is true for "the middle", but that is not how I used it. I thank you for pointing
out that this might be a bit imprecise language, so I am going to update this file.
Also, this was not malicious and evil intent, but usually I am reading Yusuf Ali
and I just took what this MUSLIM translator gave me. How do you come to your many
problems in the Bible? Are you not reading the English (or maybe Arabic) translation
and then make your conclusions from these translations? We are all on a journey to
understand better. You point out what you think are problems in the Bible,
and I point out what I think are problems in the Qur'an. Fair enough?
: Now lets look at the Arabic word used which is pronounced "Fehin"
: which in the Arabic/English Dictionary means "Therein"
Well, I asked some Arab friends and will report below what their answers
gave me.
First of all, the word is FIHINNA which means literally "in them".
The word does not mean an "exact middle", that is true, but it does mean
an "inside" or "among". It is certainly not implying "on the boundary
of", instead "inside" is probably the most accurate since our verse does
talk about "location".
: PICKTHAL: "And hath made the moon a light therein, and made the sun a lamp?" Sura 71:16
: SHAKIR: "And made the moon therein a light, and made the sun a lamp?" Sura 71:16
I will use this translation from now on.
: This is an example on how you twist words around
this implies evil intent and there was none.
: and simply because of your lack of knowledge of Arabic or simply pride,
or of your simple misunderstanding between "a" and "the" middle.
: you try in vain to create a contradiction.
In vain? I think I do have quite a sizable collection. But let us
focus on this one topic and not divert to other arguments.
: I personnelly would be happy to take words you are confused with
: and clarify the proper Arabic meaning and will provide refrences.
You know that I am always open to receive correction. Please do so.
Now, let me for completeness sake give a good number of other verses where
the Qur'an uses the exact same Arabic word "Fihinna" as in the verse we
are talking about. There are a few verses (9:36, 2:197) where this is
used as "the holy months, IN THEM do not ...", i.e. in the meaning of
"during this time". It is a temporal "inside".
In the following, the verses where this word is used for location:
[ar-Rahman 55:56] (about the gardens of Paradise)
IN THEM will be (Maidens), chaste, restraining their glances, ...
[ar-Rahman 55:70] IN THEM will be fair (Companions), good, beautiful;-
This clearly is stating that these beautiful women are inside these
gardens, and more or less in the middle or distributed, but not that
they are all huddling on the boundaries of it. [this will be imporant below]
[al-Ma'idah 5:120]
"Never said I to them aught except what Thou didst command me to say,
to wit, 'worship God, my Lord and your Lord'; and I was a witness
over them whilst I dwelt AMONGST THEM; when Thou didst take me up
Thou wast the Watcher over them, and Thou art a witness to all things.
Again, this is about Jesus, and the whole point is that he lived AMONG THEM,
not a life at an obscure point at the periphery, not he was in their midst and
they have no excuse that they did not hear his message because they didn't know
about it.
[bani Isra'il 17:44]
The seven heavens and the earth, and all beings THEREIN, declare His glory:
there is not a thing but celebrates His praise; And yet ye understand not
how they declare His glory! Verily He is Oft-Forbear, Most Forgiving!
Again, the totality is meant, not just the beings at the periphery.
[al-Mu'minun 23:71]
If the Truth had been in accord with their desires, truly the heavens and the earth,
and all beings THERIN would have been in confusion and corruption!
Nay, We have sent them their admonition, but they turn away from their admonition.
Again, IN THEM, means 'inside' those living in the earth or in the heavens.
Finally the verse in question:
Pickthall:
[Nuh 71:16] And hath made the moon a light therein, and made the sun a lamp ?
Yusuf Ali:
[Nuh 71:16] And made the moon a light in their midst,
and made the sun as a (Glorious) Lamp?
Clearly "in their midst" is a valid translation and there is no need to understand
this as "exactly in the middle heaven" but it is "inside" .. inside of what?
of the seven heavens, since that is what the Qur'an talks about in the verse before
it.
No indication that the moon is on the boundary of these heavens,
or in the lowest one. The natural reading is still "somewhere
inside". And clearly, Yusuf Ali thought that was the natural
reading.
In distinction to this, we have the very clear statement that the
stars are "on the boundary" of the seven heavens since they are in
the LOWEST heaven as Sura 67:5 says.
As such, maybe one cannot say that the moon is further away than the
stars, but given that the stars are in the lowest and the moon is
inside the heavens, the moon is at least as far away as the nearest
stars and that is still wrong.
The contradiction is not as strong as if it would say the moon is
exactly in the middle [and I never said that anyway], but it is still
a wrong impression that is given even if the Qur'an does not use very
precise language.
Would that not be a fair evaluation of the complete data?
I will update my page that you responded to to reflect all this
information within a few weeks from now.
Warm regards,
Jochen Katz