Re: Sacrafice=Love?

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Posted by chris sivewright on December 28, 1997 at 17:31:53:

In Reply to: Re: Sacrafice=Love? posted by Mohamed Ghounem on December 28, 1997 at 16:27:15:

: Thank you although I did not ask for a partial answer and you left out the most important part, the souls of millions of past, present, and future Jews who do not believe in Jesus because of his death on the cross.

You posed a series of questions. I attempted to answer some but not all. A partial answer is better than none.

: {the death was to show the conquering of death. (Hence the return later to Thomas)}

: Jesus "already" showed he can raise the dead, {John 2:22}, the Question is why did Jesus not save Himself since Jesus was "begging" to be saved, while all those Jews were wittnessing what "appeared" to be Jesus powerless and speaking to a God that did not "listen". In the Koran, God "Heard" Jesus and saved "Him"

: {If you love something/someone you sacrifice everything - which is why Abraham was prepared to make the sacrifice....}

: Abraham's only begotten son was saved by God because God is Merciful.

: {You not understanding the not saving shows you do not understand Him.}

: That is why I am asking for an answer, not a partial one and I prefer a scholar, who's not going to answer {you do not understand} no offence to you brother Chris, but you showed me in previous posts

1. Everyone prefers a scholar to answer - all questions.
2. You are not a scholar and yet you answered questions

that you did not even know

1. Arrogance again
2. belittling - again

that "pork"

This is open to debate :

Is pork/pig eating permitted in the Bible? If YES where does it say in the Bible and if NO which
verse?

Two Answers I gleaned from the newsgroup as well:

It's forbidden in the Old Testament legal codes. In the New Testament these restrictions are superseded in a
couple of places: In Acts 10 Peter has a vision in which God declares all animals to be clean (and hence edible,
in the context); in Acts 15 the apostles released the Gentile converts from just about all of the dietary laws of
Judaism; in 1 Corinthians Paul says that all foods are fine to eat as long as one is sensitive to the conscience of a
"weaker brother."

This depends who you are and when you live. It is originally prohibited to the Jews (and only to the Jews). But
it is not prohibited to the Christians after the First Council of Jerusalem described in the Book of Acts.

God gave that commandment for a time, to prepare the way for the new Law, under which it is not what comes
into a man that makes him unclean, but rather the actions and words that come out of him make him unclean.

Somebody else asks more particularly:

I would like for any Christian to show me where in the Bible did Jesus eat pork, or even allow his
disciples to eat pork.

And responses given are:

Jesus frequently `broke` the religious laws - he was criticised by the
religious people of his day for being a "friend of tax collectors and
sinners". He certainly made himself `ceremonially unclean` by entering
gentile homes and eating with gentiles. It doesn`t mention pork specifically
but compared with having contact with gentiles, eating pork was not that big
a deal!

More specifically:

1) Jesus had a run in with the Pharisees over the unclean food issue - you
can read all about it in Mark 7: 1-23.

"Jesus said: ...Don`t you see that nothing that enters a man from the
outside can make him `unclean`? For it doesn`t go into his heart but into
his stomach and then out of his body (In saying this, Jesus declared all
foods `clean`)." (Mark 7: verses 18-20)

2) Saint Peter (a jew) had a vision (repeated three times) in which God told
him that from then onwards, it was OK to eat what used to be regarded as
unclean animals:

"....then a voice told him `Get up, Peter. Kill and Eat!`.

Surely not, Lord!` Peter replied. `I have never eaten anything impure on
unclean`.

The voice spoke to him a second time `Do not call anything impure that God
mas made clean`." (Acts 10: 13-16)

The point here is that before Jesus came, the ceremonial laws were
designed to teach God`s people about the concepts of righteousness and
uncleanliness and therefore their need for a sacrifice for sin. Once Jesus
(the perfect sacrifice) died and rose again, there was no need for the old
ceremonial laws....

The origin of the Jewish prohibition on pork lies in Leviticus 11:1-7

The LORD told Moses and Aaron to say to the Israelites: These are the
creatures you may eat: Of all the larger land animals [...] you must not
eat those which only have cloven hoofs [...] the pig, because although
it is a hoofed animal with cloven hoofs it does not chew the cud, and is
unclean for you.

However, in Mark 7:14-19

On another occasion, he [Jesus] called the people and said to them,
'Listen to me, all of you, and understand this: nothing that goes into
a person from outside can defile him; no it is the things that come out
of a person that defile him.'
[...]
By saying this he declared all foods clean.

Also, 1 Corinthians 10: 25-26

You may eat anything sold in the meat market without raising questions
of conscience; 'for the earth is the Lord's, and everything in it'.

and judgeing and calling others sinners is forbidden in the Bible,

I do not call anyone a sinner BUt i ask if their actions are sinning as per the laws, rules, instructions laid down by the "authority" they claim to follow. If their actions are, a sdefined by their own authority, sins then by definition they are sinners. Their actions call themselves sinners.

you don't have to quote the Bible for me, but a good understanding of it is prefered,

Of course, which is why i have quoted above. It is also why I said a "partial" and also why I said "attempt". Note the honesty and humility. In marked contrast with what appears to be your sneering condemnatory arrogance.

Thank you for your time.

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Subject : Re: Re: Sacrafice=Love?

Comments:

: : Thank you although I did not ask for a partial answer and you left out the most important part, the souls of millions of past, present, and future Jews who do not believe in Jesus because of his death on the cross.

:
: You posed a series of questions. I attempted to answer some but not all. A partial answer is better than none.

:
: : {the death was to show the conquering of death. (Hence the return later to Thomas)}

: : Jesus "already" showed he can raise the dead, {John 2:22}, the Question is why did Jesus not save Himself since Jesus was "begging" to be saved, while all those Jews were wittnessing what "appeared" to be Jesus powerless and speaking to a God that did not "listen". In the Koran, God "Heard" Jesus and saved "Him"

: : {If you love something/someone you sacrifice everything - which is why Abraham was prepared to make the sacrifice....}

: : Abraham's only begotten son was saved by God because God is Merciful.

: : {You not understanding the not saving shows you do not understand Him.}

: : That is why I am asking for an answer, not a partial one and I prefer a scholar, who's not going to answer {you do not understand} no offence to you brother Chris, but you showed me in previous posts

: 1. Everyone prefers a scholar to answer - all questions.
: 2. You are not a scholar and yet you answered questions

: that you did not even know

:
: 1. Arrogance again
: 2. belittling - again

: that "pork"

:
: This is open to debate :

: Is pork/pig eating permitted in the Bible? If YES where does it say in the Bible and if NO which
: verse?

: Two Answers I gleaned from the newsgroup as well:

: It's forbidden in the Old Testament legal codes. In the New Testament these restrictions are superseded in a
: couple of places: In Acts 10 Peter has a vision in which God declares all animals to be clean (and hence edible,
: in the context); in Acts 15 the apostles released the Gentile converts from just about all of the dietary laws of
: Judaism; in 1 Corinthians Paul says that all foods are fine to eat as long as one is sensitive to the conscience of a
: "weaker brother."

: This depends who you are and when you live. It is originally prohibited to the Jews (and only to the Jews). But
: it is not prohibited to the Christians after the First Council of Jerusalem described in the Book of Acts.

: God gave that commandment for a time, to prepare the way for the new Law, under which it is not what comes
: into a man that makes him unclean, but rather the actions and words that come out of him make him unclean.

: Somebody else asks more particularly:

: I would like for any Christian to show me where in the Bible did Jesus eat pork, or even allow his
: disciples to eat pork.

: And responses given are:

:
: Jesus frequently `broke` the religious laws - he was criticised by the
: religious people of his day for being a "friend of tax collectors and
: sinners". He certainly made himself `ceremonially unclean` by entering
: gentile homes and eating with gentiles. It doesn`t mention pork specifically
: but compared with having contact with gentiles, eating pork was not that big
: a deal!

: More specifically:

: 1) Jesus had a run in with the Pharisees over the unclean food issue - you
: can read all about it in Mark 7: 1-23.

: "Jesus said: ...Don`t you see that nothing that enters a man from the
: outside can make him `unclean`? For it doesn`t go into his heart but into
: his stomach and then out of his body (In saying this, Jesus declared all
: foods `clean`)." (Mark 7: verses 18-20)

:
: 2) Saint Peter (a jew) had a vision (repeated three times) in which God told
: him that from then onwards, it was OK to eat what used to be regarded as
: unclean animals:

: "....then a voice told him `Get up, Peter. Kill and Eat!`.

: Surely not, Lord!` Peter replied. `I have never eaten anything impure on
: unclean`.

: The voice spoke to him a second time `Do not call anything impure that God
: mas made clean`." (Acts 10: 13-16)

: The point here is that before Jesus came, the ceremonial laws were
: designed to teach God`s people about the concepts of righteousness and
: uncleanliness and therefore their need for a sacrifice for sin. Once Jesus
: (the perfect sacrifice) died and rose again, there was no need for the old
: ceremonial laws....

:
: The origin of the Jewish prohibition on pork lies in Leviticus 11:1-7

: The LORD told Moses and Aaron to say to the Israelites: These are the
: creatures you may eat: Of all the larger land animals [...] you must not
: eat those which only have cloven hoofs [...] the pig, because although
: it is a hoofed animal with cloven hoofs it does not chew the cud, and is
: unclean for you.
:
: However, in Mark 7:14-19

: On another occasion, he [Jesus] called the people and said to them,
: 'Listen to me, all of you, and understand this: nothing that goes into
: a person from outside can defile him; no it is the things that come out
: of a person that defile him.'
: [...]
: By saying this he declared all foods clean.

: Also, 1 Corinthians 10: 25-26

: You may eat anything sold in the meat market without raising questions
: of conscience; 'for the earth is the Lord's, and everything in it'.

:
: and judgeing and calling others sinners is forbidden in the Bible,

:
: I do not call anyone a sinner BUt i ask if their actions are sinning as per the laws, rules, instructions laid down by the "authority" they claim to follow. If their actions are, a sdefined by their own authority, sins then by definition they are sinners. Their actions call themselves sinners.

: you don't have to quote the Bible for me, but a good understanding of it is prefered,

:
: Of course, which is why i have quoted above. It is also why I said a "partial" and also why I said "attempt". Note the honesty and humility. In marked contrast with what appears to be your sneering condemnatory arrogance.

: Thank you for your time.

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