Re: What Does the Bible Say about God.

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Posted by Leesa Hejazi on November 21, 1997 at 18:16:37:

In Reply to: Re: What Does the Bible Say about God. posted by Qais Ali on November 21, 1997 at 05:09:37:

:
: In the Name of Allah Most Gracious Most Merciful

: "Say, who sent down the Book that Moses brought as a light and a guidance to people? You make it into sheets of paper showing some of them and concealing much." (6:91)

: Katz you stated :
: >: Where does it say anywhere that God NEEDED rest? It says he rested - and the
: : Hebrew word just means "ceased from working" (from the work of creation -
: : obviously he continues to uphold all creation and nothing would be alive if
: : God were to withdraw).<<

Dear Qais,

Having read your rebuttal, I felt some response was in order. I trust that you read my posting to which Mr. Katz was replying as I don't want to reiterate anything unduly. Nevertheless, it bears worth saying that you, too, are attempting an approach like that I originally reproached. Let me begin with "refreshed." The meaning of refreshed, to make oneself or another stronger or more energetic, is appropriately fitting in this passage. When God ceased from his labor of creation, he was invigorated by the magnificence of his accomplishment. Lest you mistunderstand the context of refreshed in this passage, it is used as a verb intransitive, the implication of which means that God "showed energy and activity." As I'm not certain on what grounds you purport that the "sabbath" [sic] was a standing Insult [sic] to God, I cannot properly respond to that assertion. Nevertheless, as it is one of the commandments given to Moses by God, we can safely assume that God's intention was not to insult Himself. You would do well to substantiate this claim to provide your audience with at least a basis upon which they may pursue your logic.

What I am about to say next, dear Qais, does not make me happy. You accuse Christians of cafertia style selection of Biblical texts to support their thesis, and yet you are guilty of the same crime. Herein lies the premise of my original thesis -- it serves absolutely no didactic purpose or gain for any parties involved if we persist in this manner. Did you not read anything I wrote which, in fact, prompted Mr. Katz's response? As it appears to me you did not, I will humor you by taking the verses you cited and applying my thesis to them -- one by one -- to show you how your cafeteria analogy will ultimately prove itself to be a double edged sword.

Pslam 44 is a Maskil of the Sons of Korah. Although the specific meaning of the word Maskil is undetermined, contextually it is taking to mean an instructive or meditative ode. Books I,II,and III constitute Israel's psalter of their Exile. Again, as I mentioned before, the Psalms are full of literary devices and the passage in question clearly demonstrates. The Psalmist is not saying that God is sleeping or sleepy or anything of that nature. The words, "Rouse thyself! Why sleepest thou, O Lord?" is a metaphorical phrase. A metaphor is a word or a group of words used to describe something else. Here, the something else is God's conscious and purposeful inactivity. What the psalmist portrays is his inability to accept that God has chosen this course of action -- because his experience with it has not been to his liking. The nature of his plea is not unlike that of Job, who also experienced trials that were not to his liking but that were ordained by God's will for his life.
Moving right along, you next site Psalm 78: 65 -- and quite out of context to the whole of the narrative I should add. Start at the beginning of Psalm 78 and read it through its entirety and tell me, honestly, if you can take this one line and legitimately make the case that the psalmist here understands God to be drunkard. Pslam 78 is a story, a "parable" (verse 2) about the Israelites and the wrath they incurred when they disobeyed God. Again and again God gave them many opportunities to change their wicked ways, and again and again they failed to make right by God. The passage you refer to has nothing AT ALL to do with ascribing drunkenness to the character of God. Again, the use of metaphor is tantamount to understanding what the psalmist is saying -- except here the author uses similie to further explain his understanding of God's action. He writes, " . . . like a strong man shouting because of wine." Like is our key word. For men to understand another's references, the use of metaphor and simile are necessary. Here, the psalmist wants the audience to know that when God did act, his actions were unchecked in their wrath. Given this, the Quranic verse you site is right on the mark. "Allah! there is no god but He, the Living, the Sustainer and Protector. Neither slumber nor sleep overtake Him. His are all things in the heavens and the earth. Who can intercede in His presence except as He permits? He knows what is before and behind them. Nor do they encompass aught of His knowledge except as He wills. His throne does extend over the heavens and the earth and He feels no fatigue in preserving them. For He is the Most High, the Supreme."
(2):255. Apply this mandate to what you now know about the psalms you sited. The psalmist in the first would like to intercede in God's presence, thereby regaining God's favor, but, as it happens, only God can determine that action. Clearly the psalmist knew "aught" of God's knowledge or he wouldn't have been pleading his case to begin with. As for the second passage you sited, it too finds relevance and confirmation in what you have quoted from the Quran. God never tired of preserving the Israelites -- He was their Sustanance and Protection -- this is the scope of the message of Pslam 78.

Regarding your submission of Gen. 32, and the struggle between Jacob and "a man." The confusion this passage creates stems from verse 30, "So Jacob calle the name of the place Peni'el, saying, 'For have seen God face to face and yet my life is preserved.'" The word face, panim, is used throughout the Bible literally, figuratively, and idiomatically. In the understanding of spiritual matters, we must use every means of understanding which we possess. and we shouldn't obtrude irrelevant matter into our discussions. Just as man's intellect has given him the ability to invesitage the physical world around him, his intellect also supplies him with the ability to grasp the lexical variations that exist between us. The Arabic language is rich with literal, figurative, and idiomatic expressions. If you insist on applying only the literal interpretation to another's language, be then prepared to apply the same to the language of the Quran. If you venture this, I believe you will be uncomfortable with the interpretation it would render.

Anyway, my friend, please take a moment to read my previous posting on this same subject. The enmity that exists in this dialogue is counterproductive for all concerned and I would hope that all of us would take a moment to determine what precedents we are setting when we waste time haggling over matters of lexicon or etymology when discussing substanance should be our motivation and mainstay. I'm sorry that I've run short of time and am not able to address the rest of your response in depth.

Masaalam,

Leesa

: You further stated :
: >> But your misunderstanding is based on seeking for verses you can twist, instead of reading all of God's revelation. Here some Mohamed seems to have missed Basically, Muhammad only listened well to the Jews in Mecca and Medina. <<

: Ahh, Dear Katz, its just like cafeteria, with most christians, they pick and choose. To add what Mr. Ghanoum was stating there are many passages which you brushed through which speak of
: God being uncognizant and/or is not eternally aware

: Psalms 44:23 "Awake, why sleepest thou, O Lord? arise, cast us not off for ever."

: A Sleepy God?

: We read further in Psalms When God finally becomes cognizant attentive and aware, He acts like a drunkard :

: Psalms 78:65 "Then the LORD awaked as one out of sleep, and like a mighty man that shouteth by reason of wine."

:
: "Allah! there is no god but He, the Living, the Sustainer and Protector. Neither slumber nor sleep overtake Him. His are all things in the heavens and the earth. Who can intercede in His presence except as He permits? He knows what is before and behind them. Nor do they encompass aught of His knowledge except as He wills. His throne does extend over the heavens and the earth and He feels no fatigue in preserving them. For He is the Most High, the Supreme."
: The noble Qur'an, Al-Baqarah(2):255

:
: In fact we read in Genesis 32:24-30 that Jacob (pbuh) wrestles with God. God can not win against Jacob (pbuh) ! ! Frankly we muslims dont pray to a God that loses wrestling match ups to his prophets.

: Some will claim "Oh wait that was a angel!" Did Jacob (pbuh) say "I have seen the angel of God"? Did he say "I have seen the light of God" or some other statement that might have had an abstract meaning? No! He said "I have seen God" Further, Jacob didnt say he saw the face of the angel, but the face of God (peni-el).

: Here are some more ill befitting qualities of God ive collected in the "Holey" bible.

: Since Katz, quoted in defense from the book of Isaiah, I deem i shall take the following from the same book..

: A "HISSING" GOD - Isaiah 5:26, (also Zech. 10:8)
: A "ROARING" GOD -Isaiah 42:13 (also Jer. 25:30)
: A "BARBER" GOD - Isaiah 7:20

: etc.. etc..

: By the way, as the myth of the Quran supposedly confirming the Bible is unchanged, which was started by Mr. Ibrahim (his article is on your web page) Here is my rebuttal Click Here

: Btw, You quoted :
: >>{Heb. 5:5} "God said to Jesus,'You are my son today I have begotten you" <<

: Joch, have you noticed that the name of the author, which is invariably mentioned in the title (heading) of every Epistle, is conspicuously missing in the Hebrews....also The Epistle to the Hebrews is not listed in the 6th century list of the manuscripts called Codex Claromon. This obviously leads to the suspicion that it could have been written at a later date. Martin Luther suggested that Apollos was the author...Tertullian said that Hebrews was a letter of Barnabas...Adolf Harnack and J. Rendel Harris speculated that it was written by Priscilla.

: God's blessing's be on those who follow the right path.

: -Qais Ali

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: :
: : In the Name of Allah Most Gracious Most Merciful

: : "Say, who sent down the Book that Moses brought as a light and a guidance to people? You make it into sheets of paper showing some of them and concealing much." (6:91)

: : Katz you stated :
: : >: Where does it say anywhere that God NEEDED rest? It says he rested - and the
: : : Hebrew word just means "ceased from working" (from the work of creation -
: : : obviously he continues to uphold all creation and nothing would be alive if
: : : God were to withdraw).<<

: Dear Qais,

: Having read your rebuttal, I felt some response was in order. I trust that you read my posting to which Mr. Katz was replying as I don't want to reiterate anything unduly. Nevertheless, it bears worth saying that you, too, are attempting an approach like that I originally reproached. Let me begin with "refreshed." The meaning of refreshed, to make oneself or another stronger or more energetic, is appropriately fitting in this passage. When God ceased from his labor of creation, he was invigorated by the magnificence of his accomplishment. Lest you mistunderstand the context of refreshed in this passage, it is used as a verb intransitive, the implication of which means that God "showed energy and activity." As I'm not certain on what grounds you purport that the "sabbath" [sic] was a standing Insult [sic] to God, I cannot properly respond to that assertion. Nevertheless, as it is one of the commandments given to Moses by God, we can safely assume that God's intention was not to insult Himself. You would do well to substantiate this claim to provide your audience with at least a basis upon which they may pursue your logic.

: What I am about to say next, dear Qais, does not make me happy. You accuse Christians of cafertia style selection of Biblical texts to support their thesis, and yet you are guilty of the same crime. Herein lies the premise of my original thesis -- it serves absolutely no didactic purpose or gain for any parties involved if we persist in this manner. Did you not read anything I wrote which, in fact, prompted Mr. Katz's response? As it appears to me you did not, I will humor you by taking the verses you cited and applying my thesis to them -- one by one -- to show you how your cafeteria analogy will ultimately prove itself to be a double edged sword.

: Pslam 44 is a Maskil of the Sons of Korah. Although the specific meaning of the word Maskil is undetermined, contextually it is taking to mean an instructive or meditative ode. Books I,II,and III constitute Israel's psalter of their Exile. Again, as I mentioned before, the Psalms are full of literary devices and the passage in question clearly demonstrates. The Psalmist is not saying that God is sleeping or sleepy or anything of that nature. The words, "Rouse thyself! Why sleepest thou, O Lord?" is a metaphorical phrase. A metaphor is a word or a group of words used to describe something else. Here, the something else is God's conscious and purposeful inactivity. What the psalmist portrays is his inability to accept that God has chosen this course of action -- because his experience with it has not been to his liking. The nature of his plea is not unlike that of Job, who also experienced trials that were not to his liking but that were ordained by God's will for his life.
: Moving right along, you next site Psalm 78: 65 -- and quite out of context to the whole of the narrative I should add. Start at the beginning of Psalm 78 and read it through its entirety and tell me, honestly, if you can take this one line and legitimately make the case that the psalmist here understands God to be drunkard. Pslam 78 is a story, a "parable" (verse 2) about the Israelites and the wrath they incurred when they disobeyed God. Again and again God gave them many opportunities to change their wicked ways, and again and again they failed to make right by God. The passage you refer to has nothing AT ALL to do with ascribing drunkenness to the character of God. Again, the use of metaphor is tantamount to understanding what the psalmist is saying -- except here the author uses similie to further explain his understanding of God's action. He writes, " . . . like a strong man shouting because of wine." Like is our key word. For men to understand another's references, the use of metaphor and simile are necessary. Here, the psalmist wants the audience to know that when God did act, his actions were unchecked in their wrath. Given this, the Quranic verse you site is right on the mark. "Allah! there is no god but He, the Living, the Sustainer and Protector. Neither slumber nor sleep overtake Him. His are all things in the heavens and the earth. Who can intercede in His presence except as He permits? He knows what is before and behind them. Nor do they encompass aught of His knowledge except as He wills. His throne does extend over the heavens and the earth and He feels no fatigue in preserving them. For He is the Most High, the Supreme."
: (2):255. Apply this mandate to what you now know about the psalms you sited. The psalmist in the first would like to intercede in God's presence, thereby regaining God's favor, but, as it happens, only God can determine that action. Clearly the psalmist knew "aught" of God's knowledge or he wouldn't have been pleading his case to begin with. As for the second passage you sited, it too finds relevance and confirmation in what you have quoted from the Quran. God never tired of preserving the Israelites -- He was their Sustanance and Protection -- this is the scope of the message of Pslam 78.

: Regarding your submission of Gen. 32, and the struggle between Jacob and "a man." The confusion this passage creates stems from verse 30, "So Jacob calle the name of the place Peni'el, saying, 'For have seen God face to face and yet my life is preserved.'" The word face, panim, is used throughout the Bible literally, figuratively, and idiomatically. In the understanding of spiritual matters, we must use every means of understanding which we possess. and we shouldn't obtrude irrelevant matter into our discussions. Just as man's intellect has given him the ability to invesitage the physical world around him, his intellect also supplies him with the ability to grasp the lexical variations that exist between us. The Arabic language is rich with literal, figurative, and idiomatic expressions. If you insist on applying only the literal interpretation to another's language, be then prepared to apply the same to the language of the Quran. If you venture this, I believe you will be uncomfortable with the interpretation it would render.

: Anyway, my friend, please take a moment to read my previous posting on this same subject. The enmity that exists in this dialogue is counterproductive for all concerned and I would hope that all of us would take a moment to determine what precedents we are setting when we waste time haggling over matters of lexicon or etymology when discussing substanance should be our motivation and mainstay. I'm sorry that I've run short of time and am not able to address the rest of your response in depth.

: Masaalam,

: Leesa

: : You further stated :
: : >> But your misunderstanding is based on seeking for verses you can twist, instead of reading all of God's revelation. Here some Mohamed seems to have missed Basically, Muhammad only listened well to the Jews in Mecca and Medina. <<

:
: : Ahh, Dear Katz, its just like cafeteria, with most christians, they pick and choose. To add what Mr. Ghanoum was stating there are many passages which you brushed through which speak of
: : God being uncognizant and/or is not eternally aware

: : Psalms 44:23 "Awake, why sleepest thou, O Lord? arise, cast us not off for ever."

: : A Sleepy God?

: : We read further in Psalms When God finally becomes cognizant attentive and aware, He acts like a drunkard :

: : Psalms 78:65 "Then the LORD awaked as one out of sleep, and like a mighty man that shouteth by reason of wine."

: :
: : "Allah! there is no god but He, the Living, the Sustainer and Protector. Neither slumber nor sleep overtake Him. His are all things in the heavens and the earth. Who can intercede in His presence except as He permits? He knows what is before and behind them. Nor do they encompass aught of His knowledge except as He wills. His throne does extend over the heavens and the earth and He feels no fatigue in preserving them. For He is the Most High, the Supreme."
: : The noble Qur'an, Al-Baqarah(2):255

: :
: : In fact we read in Genesis 32:24-30 that Jacob (pbuh) wrestles with God. God can not win against Jacob (pbuh) ! ! Frankly we muslims dont pray to a God that loses wrestling match ups to his prophets.

: : Some will claim "Oh wait that was a angel!" Did Jacob (pbuh) say "I have seen the angel of God"? Did he say "I have seen the light of God" or some other statement that might have had an abstract meaning? No! He said "I have seen God" Further, Jacob didnt say he saw the face of the angel, but the face of God (peni-el).

: : Here are some more ill befitting qualities of God ive collected in the "Holey" bible.

: : Since Katz, quoted in defense from the book of Isaiah, I deem i shall take the following from the same book..

: : A "HISSING" GOD - Isaiah 5:26, (also Zech. 10:8)
: : A "ROARING" GOD -Isaiah 42:13 (also Jer. 25:30)
: : A "BARBER" GOD - Isaiah 7:20

: : etc.. etc..

: : By the way, as the myth of the Quran supposedly confirming the Bible is unchanged, which was started by Mr. Ibrahim (his article is on your web page) Here is my rebuttal <A HREF="http://members.aol.com/AhmdDedat2/uchange.htm"> Click Here</A>

: : Btw, You quoted :
: : >>{Heb. 5:5} "God said to Jesus,'You are my son today I have begotten you" <<

: : Joch, have you noticed that the name of the author, which is invariably mentioned in the title (heading) of every Epistle, is conspicuously missing in the Hebrews....also The Epistle to the Hebrews is not listed in the 6th century list of the manuscripts called Codex Claromon. This obviously leads to the suspicion that it could have been written at a later date. Martin Luther suggested that Apollos was the author...Tertullian said that Hebrews was a letter of Barnabas...Adolf Harnack and J. Rendel Harris speculated that it was written by Priscilla.

: : God's blessing's be on those who follow the right path.

: : -Qais Ali

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